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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-07 > 1120498664


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Complete Scot R1b Variety
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:37:44 -0600
References: <LPBBIOAAMGMFKIJPLJBCAECLDNAA.dclwilson@earthlink.net>


When I indicate 11 is modal at 461 for Scot R1b and 12 is modal for Atlantic
R1b, that is the DNA Heritage Convention. Sorenson convention is one less
in each case. Conventions drive me nuts; but sometimes one has to invest in
straightening them out. Anyway, there is a strong 1 repeat shift between
the two types of R1b, independent of convention.

I intend to do the variance test for Scot R1b because the Sorenson
population is so robust --- 93 haplotypes. But the urgency is taken off
that endeavor because my initial look at some of the data seems to indicate
that it won't be super young. But that's a subjective look right now. I
intend to keep YCAIIa,b = 19,24 to define the population, but I have not yet
fully decided what other markers will be frozen among the 6 so used.


Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: [DNA] Complete Scot R1b Variety


> Ken,
>
> Thank you for summarizing this variety so clearly and adding the modal
> values for the less frequently measured markers.
>
> I have a question about "FTDNA conventions" for 461, which that company
> doesn't measure. SMGF's "adjust for FTDNA" protocol increases the SMGF
> determination for 461 by 1, but the last time I looked Ysearch/FTDNA let
you
> put in a number for 461 without suggesting how to handle data determined
by
> other labs. A few days ago I changed my 461 value in Ysearch from 11 to 12
> to reflect consistency with DNAH reporting practice. (SMGF has me as an 11
> at 461.) Is the modal value 11 you report for Scot 461 the straight SMGF
> value or the adjusted value?
>
> Have you yet taken a look at the variance for different markers in this
> variety? It seems to me there may be some breadth to it. For example, one
> North American Lovelace/Loveless family shows 24/10 but has 13,31 at
389 --
> even a higher value for 389ii than the modal 30 you find. But these
> Lovelaces (for which there is weak circumstantial and anecdotal evidence
of
> a Scottish connection) have 19,23 at YCAII rather than the 19,24 that
seems
> to be common in this Scot variety.
>
> Along this same line, I have one Wilson with 13,30 and another with 13,31
at
> 389. They are both 25/10 at 390/391. But there are no Wilsons who show the
> pure form of the variety you just described. They didn't measure YCAII.
>
> The only 19,24 among R1b Wilsons is found in one who is 23/11 at 390/391.
He
> is also 13,29 at 389, so it feels to me as though this one is NOT part of
> the cluster you described.
>
> If you do get around to checking ASD for this Scot R1b population, I'd be
> interested to hear your ideas about its relative age.
>
> David Wilson
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Nordtvedt
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 12:53 PM
> Subject: A R1b Cluster
>
>
> Several months ago I found that R1b haplotypes with the unusual YCaIIa,b
> = 19,24 had the modal duo DYS390,391 = 24,10 instead of the Atlantic
Modal
> 24,11 which predominates with the normal R1b YCAIIa,b = 19,23
>
> I found a good number of other modal differences for the
> DYS390,391,YCAIIa,b = 24,10,19,24 variety of R1b. Let's call it the "Scot"
> R1b Variety
>
> Scot is modal 13,30 at DYS389i,ii, while Atlantic is 13,29
>
> Scot is modal 30 at DYS449, while Atlantic is modal 29
>
> Scot is modal 15 at DYS456, while Atlantic is modal 16
>
> Scot is modal 18 at DYS458, while Atlantic is modal 17
>
> Scot is modal 12 at H4, while Atlantic is modal 11
>
> Scot is modal 11 at DYS444, while Atlantic is modal 12
>
> Scot is modal 11 at DYS461, while Atlantic is modal 12
>
> Scot is modal 24 at C4, while Atlantic is modal 23
>
> STR repeats are FTDNA convention, although most of the data searched was
> from Sorenson database. A couple of these modal shifts are weak, but most
> are very decisive shifts.
>
> Both Sorenson and Ysearch show these haplotypes to come predominately from
> Scotland, hence the nickname for the variety. Sorenson pedigrees show
very,
> very low occurence of the new variety in continental Europe.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
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