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From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Fw: Western Transitional R1a
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:19:04 -0600
References: <070820050110.423.42CDD26D00013BD9000001A72200750438050B989A0E00@comcast.net>


A large part of the equation already sits here in Europe. After using up a
few
markers to define varieties of R1a, I then examined 28 additional markers
for modal differences between the "Norwegian R1a" with its YCAIIa,b = 19,21,
and its neighbor haplotype with YCAIIa,b = 19,23 which is the "normal" motif
for European R1a. The Sorenson haplotypes are about as extended as they
presently get.

So I am comparing haplotypes R1a haplotypes with 25/15/11 at DYS390,19,391
with either 19,21 or 19,23 at YCAIIa,b

There were only two modal shifts seen and one is relevant primarily to
Scotland. Otherwise the 28 markers have the same repeat distributions for
the two R1a types with the YCAIIa,b = 19,23 type perhaps looking older with
more spread in its distributions.

1) There was a shift of DYS385 from 13,30 to 14,31. The Norwegian R1a is
equally mixed in these values; the YCA = 19,23 R1a has none of the latter.
DYS449 splits in correlation with DYS385: 449 = 31 goes with 385 = 14,31
while 449 = 32 goes with 385 = 13,30.

2) In Scotland there appears Norwegian R1a with 8,10 at DYS459a,b instead of
the normal 9,10. No 8,10 was found in Norway. It seems that the 8,10
population descends from a founder who existed about the time or after
Viking settlements in Scotland. Two other shifts are correlated with this
Scot variation on Norwegian R1a --- DYS452 shifts from 11 to 12 and DYS456
shifts from 16 to 17.

The key question is 1)? Out of the 28 markers there was a shift of ABOUT
HALF of the YCAIIa,b = 19,21 R1a popultion with just 2 markers changing
together: DYS385 going from 13,30 to 14,31 and DYS449 going from 32 to 31.
It appears the emergence of this variety appeared in place --- near or in
Norway. And it still leaves in Norway a robust YCAIIa,b = 19,21 R1a
population which in all 28 markers is identical in modality to its YCAIIa,b
= 19,23 neighbor haplotype. This latter haplotype was found not only in
Norway, but also the rest of Scandinavia, and Germany.

So it would seem any hypothesis of a radically different source for the YCA
= 19,21 R1a in Norway would have to include the normal YCA 19,23 as part of
its scenario? The scenario's clarity is thengetting blurred with just
founder effect spin-offs from the general East European stock of R1a.

What kind of evidence from Central Asian R1a would trump the interpretation
that YCA = 19,21 R1a emerged from a founder located near or in Norway?


:
>
> Dr. Wilson and I will be collaborating on the project with those who have
DNA samples from R1a Central Asian populations. We need to do requisite
haplotype marker testing (extended) and compare to various European groups.
This will take some time so don't hold your breath for the publication and
until then or necessity all my data remains under wraps. We will never have
a clear answer without proper testing of Central Asian samples - just
imformed speculation.
>
> David F.
>
>
>


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