Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-07 > 1120838541

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Fw: Western Transitional R1a
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:02:21 -0600
References: <>

David, You are not addressing the point. Yes, the evidence is pretty clear
that some high-placed Scots and folks on the northerly isles got a unique
form of "Norwegian 19,21 R1a" from Norway. I spent a couple sentences
indicating the markers where this Scot/Shetland variation differs from the
Norwegians, but is otherwise a spin-off. The Norway to
Scotland/Shetland/Iceland link is not the issue, at least with me.

And it is pretty clear that IN EUROPE the total 19,21 variety of R1a is
rather focused in Norway (which has both its own and the Scot variations).

Suppose you find YCA = 19,21 R1a in Central Asia. You will hardly do better
(other than YCA, itself) in matching the Norwegian 19,21 in an extended
haplotype than the present YCA = 19,23 R1a with the same 25/15/11 at
DYS390,19,391 which is found more diffused in Europe --- certainly well
beyond just Norway. If the 19,21 R1a in Europe had been found in the
extended haplotypes to be decisively different than neighboring 19,23 R1a in
Europe, then I would say there is room for the Central Asian measurements to
be a better match or origin; but that does not appear to be possible given
the European data.

How will you under optimistic scenario of matching on an extended haplotype
differentiate between the out-of-Central-Asia hypothesis and the
founder-near-Norway hypothesis?

Testing the Central Asians for the R1a can certainly result in data which
rejects the out-of-CA hypothesis, but I am asking how you robustly make it
the most likely explanation of the data if the CA data goes your way?

The odds seem high to me that if a direct stream of R1a came into Norway
from Central Asia, it will show some clear break with the R1a types seen
elsewhere in Europe? I expect the more likely outcome to be that Central
Asian R1a will show the clear break with the Norwegian R1a. But the
measurements should be done because one way or the other we ultimately want
to know the connection between all the branches of the R1a.


> -------------- Original message --------------
> > What kind of evidence from Central Asian R1a would trump the
> > that YCA = 19,21 R1a emerged from a founder located near or in Norway?
> Quite simply Ken, tribal groups which have the 19,21 motif.

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