GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-08 > 1123492225
From: Dienekes Pontikos <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The "No I1b in Scandinavia" Mystery
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 02:10:25 -0700
I1b seems to be confined largely to Balto-Slavic populations in
Eastern Europe. It is found of course in non-Balto-Slavic populations
of the Balkans where it originated, such as Greeks and Albanians, but
its arrival in northern Europe may have something to do with the
Proto-Balto-Slavs. Since we know that Balto-Slavs never settled in
Scandinavia, it makes sense that there would be no I1b there.
R1a on the other hand may also be associated with Balto-Slavs, but it
is much older than the Balto-Slavs and may have spread before the
formation of the Balto-Slavic linguistic group. It seems to be widely
represented in the Germanic, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian groups, as
well as to Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia that was
formerly occupied by Iranic speakers.
So, the mystery can be explained by an earlier diffusion of R1a over a
wide geographical area, and a more recent, and more geographically
constrained spread of I1b which may not have affected the Germanic
peoples of Northern Europe.
This article may also be of interest:
On 8/6/05, Ken Nordtvedt <> wrote:
> I found 301 core Dinaric I1b haplotypes in YHRD spread around in Europe. The main haplotype was 16,24,(14,15),11,13, (13,31) at DYS19,390,385a,b,392,393,389i,ii
> Neighboring haplotypes DYS19 = 15 or 17 and 389i,ii = 13,30 and 13,32 of decent population were included.
> Only 2 of the 301 haplotypes were found in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, or Finland databases. These Scandinavian databases add up to over 1600 haplotypes. So we're talking less than 1 in 800 being I1b.
> I1b reaches Poland in good number; there is a sprinkling of I1b throughout Germany; The Baltic countries and Ukraine have decent I1b numbers. And of course it gets thicker as you approach the Balkans.
> Why so minimal I1b in Scandinavia? Today I1b and R1a are well mixed in Eastern Europe. We know lots of R1a reached Norway and Sweden, and somewhat less Denmark and Finland. How did the R1a get to Scandinavia in the numbers it did without bringing more I1b with it? The R1a in Scandinavia comes in both the Slavic type as well as the unique forms found most heavily there, and perhaps homehatched or hatched in Central Asia. The almost complete absence of I1b in Scandinavia is telling us something important about the ancient movement of peoples, but I hasten to add I don't know what?
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