Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-08 > 1123506961

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The "No I1b in Scandinavia" Mystery
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:16:01 -0600
References: <001401c59ab2$f3e5d870$71509045@Ken1> <>

Yes, "a R1a came to NE Europe first" scenario could explain this, but is not
the general view that I1b was in Europe earlier than R1a. This prevailing
view is that "I" wintered in southern refugia during the last glacial
maximum, including the Balkan area for I1b specifically if the subclades of
I had already been differentiated by then. And is not the arrival of R1a
thought to be post-LGM?

I would really like to solve this riddle internally with only the dna
evidence. So what kind of evidence would we seek in the dna data which
could differentiate between this early arrival of R1a everywhere we
presently see it, and the view that I1b spread first in Eastern Europe, that
R1a in Eastern Europe was spread to its present territory by the 500 A.D.
spread of the Slavs out of their originally confined areas around the Pripet

And in any case the spread of R1a into Scandinavia without any I1b with it
could not have occured too early. The populating of that area was delayed
substantially from that of the rest of Europe by the lingering Ice.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dienekes Pontikos" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:10 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] The "No I1b in Scandinavia" Mystery

> I1b seems to be confined largely to Balto-Slavic populations in
> Eastern Europe. It is found of course in non-Balto-Slavic populations
> of the Balkans where it originated, such as Greeks and Albanians, but
> its arrival in northern Europe may have something to do with the
> Proto-Balto-Slavs. Since we know that Balto-Slavs never settled in
> Scandinavia, it makes sense that there would be no I1b there.
> R1a on the other hand may also be associated with Balto-Slavs, but it
> is much older than the Balto-Slavs and may have spread before the
> formation of the Balto-Slavic linguistic group. It seems to be widely
> represented in the Germanic, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian groups, as
> well as to Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia that was
> formerly occupied by Iranic speakers.
> So, the mystery can be explained by an earlier diffusion of R1a over a
> wide geographical area, and a more recent, and more geographically
> constrained spread of I1b which may not have affected the Germanic
> peoples of Northern Europe.
> This article may also be of interest:
> On 8/6/05, Ken Nordtvedt <> wrote:
> > I found 301 core Dinaric I1b haplotypes in YHRD spread around in Europe.
The main haplotype was 16,24,(14,15),11,13, (13,31) at
> > Neighboring haplotypes DYS19 = 15 or 17 and 389i,ii = 13,30 and 13,32
of decent population were included.
> >
> > Only 2 of the 301 haplotypes were found in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, or
Finland databases. These Scandinavian databases add up to over 1600
haplotypes. So we're talking less than 1 in 800 being I1b.
> >
> > I1b reaches Poland in good number; there is a sprinkling of I1b
throughout Germany; The Baltic countries and Ukraine have decent I1b
numbers. And of course it gets thicker as you approach the Balkans.
> >
> > Why so minimal I1b in Scandinavia? Today I1b and R1a are well mixed in
Eastern Europe. We know lots of R1a reached Norway and Sweden, and somewhat
less Denmark and Finland. How did the R1a get to Scandinavia in the numbers
it did without bringing more I1b with it? The R1a in Scandinavia comes in
both the Slavic type as well as the unique forms found most heavily there,
and perhaps homehatched or hatched in Central Asia. The almost complete
absence of I1b in Scandinavia is telling us something important about the
ancient movement of peoples, but I hasten to add I don't know what?
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
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