GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-08 > 1124777585


From: victor villarreal <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Sephardic Diaspora
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:13:05 -0500
References: <9f.65aac3df.303bf9a9@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <9f.65aac3df.303bf9a9@aol.com>


Beth

If everyone was reading all available genetics literature and had a sharp
mind to fully comprehend everything maybe nobody would be posting questions
in this forum. The sad truth is that some may come here for the easy,
prefabricated answer and if it fits their preconceived notions of a special
or unique ancestry the better.

In history and in science there are some incontrovertible facts; all the
rest are conjectures that should always be qualified as such!

May I suggest a very enlightening document as a starting point for those who
refuse the easy answers about the topic at hand: "Contrasting patterns of Y
chromosome variation in Ashkenazi Jewish and host non-Jewish European
populations", by Behar et. al.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Behar_contrasting.pdf

What follows is a quote from said document that poses plausible scientific
scenarios to the ones presented in your post, regarding the Neolithic
dispersal of middle eastern haplogroups across Europe.

Victor.

Origins of Ashkenazi NRY lineages

Based on the frequency and distribution of the 20 haplogroups
observed in AJ and NJ populations, we subdi-
vided Ashkenazi Jewish lineages into the following three
categories: major founder haplogroups, minor founder haplogroups,
and shared haplogroups. The first two categories
include those haplogroups likely to be present in the founding
Ashkenazi population (and that now occur at high and
low frequency, respectively). The latter category is comprised
of haplogroups that either entered the Jewish gene
pool recently as the result of introgression from European
host populations, and/or that were present in both European
and Jewish populations before the dispersal of ancestral
Ashkenazim into Europe. We acknowledge that
such categorization is complicated because current haplogroup
distributions are the culmination of many past events.
For example, haplogroups such as R-M17 and R-P25 that
predominate in European populations today (see below)
may have also been present in the Near East as part of the
ancestral AJ gene pool. Similarly, haplogroups that predominate
in AJ may have entered the European gene pool
before AJ populations dispersed into Europe.
Paragroup EM35* and haplogroup J-12f2a* fit the criteria
for major AJ founding lineages because they are
widespread both in AJ populations and in Near Eastern
populations, and occur at much lower frequencies in European
non-Jewish populations. Because they have similar
distributions as these major founder lineages, albeit at
lower frequencies, we suggest that haplogroups G-M201
and Q-P36 are minor AJ founding lineages. Although
J-M172 is also found at high frequency in AJ populations
(and probably migrated to Europe with the original founding
Ashkenazi population), its presence in European non-
Jews at a frequency of 6% may reflect a more complicated
history of migration to Europe (i.e., both before and during
the Jewish Diaspora). This migration may have been
mediated either by the diffusion of Neolithic farmers from
the Near East between 4,000 and 7,500 years ago (Semino
et al. 2000) or by sea-faring peoples in the Mediterranean
region (Mitchell and Hammer 1996). Interestingly, M35+
chromosomes (E3b*; or their evolutionary precursors E*
and E3*) were previously hypothesized to have migrated
to Europe with farmers in the Neolithic (Hammer et al.
1997; Rosser et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000). However,
because M35* chromosomes are rare in Europe, we instead
hypothesize that the derived lineage, E-M78 (E3b1),
is the more likely haplogroup reflecting Neolithic demic
diffusion. Similarly, we suggest that G-P15 with its better
representation in Europe, rather than its evolutionary precursor
G-M201 (which is found mainly in AJ populations),
is a better candidate marker for Neolithic migrations
of farmers into Europe.


<http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Behar_contrasting.pdf>;


On 8/22/05, <> wrote:
>
> Dear Listers,
> It is very interesting that when I write a response to someone's direct
> request for opinions regarding their possible Jewish ancestry, there is
> such
> a deluge of rebuttal from some of you that this or that person 'could not'
> be
> Jewish, but instead must attribute his/her J (or E3b or G) haplotype
> British
> ancestry to the Romans. The Romans occupied Britain around 2000 years ago
> in
> limited numbers and for a limited time period. There is little/no evidence
> that any of the Romans carried E3b, J or G haplotypes to Britain. (If you
> have
> such evidence, why not produce it for all of us to see!)
> Conversely, in 1290 tens of thousands of Jews were living in Britain and
> were forced (by Edward I) to either convert, be killed, or leave. Many
> thousands converted (at least nominally) to Christianity at that time and
> remained
> in Britain (along with their haplotypes). In 1492 several tens of
> thousands
> (perhaps 200,000+) Jews left Iberia as a result of the Inquisition and
> migrated throughout Western and Eastern Europe, usually posing as
> Christians to
> protect themselves from further persecution.
> Many made their way to Britain at this time as 'practicing Catholic'
> Portuguese and Spaniards (again carrying their haplotypes with them.
> Is it not much more likely that any J, E3b and G haplotypes now found in
> Britain resulted from this much larger, more recent and many times more
> likely to have Middle Eastern haplotypes influx of persons than the
> Neolithic or
> Roman theories you propose??
> Further, it would seem that you view these "could I be Jewish?' inquiries
> to be from persons too mentally feeble to read the existing literature for
> themselves and form their OWN judgments of their ancestry. Why not let
> them
> read ALL the relevant histories and ALL the relevant websites and come to
> their
> OWN conclusions. They may have family knowledge that radically challenges
> what both you and I have to say. Let's simply provide suggestions without
> belittling each other's points of view and let these individuals guide
> themselves
> to their own answers.
> Beth
>
>

This thread: