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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-09 > 1125588596


From: "Ray Lovett" <>
Subject: Fw: [DNA] Fw: DYS 464a, b, c, d, e,
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:30:54 -0500


Thanks Gareth and others on the list for the help on this question.
Ray

----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Fw: DYS 464a, b, c, d, e,


> Ray and List
>
> the three haplotypes match exactly apart from DYS464 so I think there is
> no
> doubt that the three men are descended from the same Lovett ancestor. They
> are I1a, Ken could probably deduce a likely region of origin from the full
> set of results.
> There are two mutations to consider:
> - the extra DYS464 copy (probably a doubling of the 12) which must have
> been
> inherited from the common ancestor
> - the difference between the one man and the other two for which the most
> simple explanation is a jump from 15 to 18 or vice versa.
> Both mutations are unusual but not impossible. Without any paper trails or
> mutations at other markers it is difficult to triangulate to deduce the
> ancestral form of DYS464. On the one hand 12,14,15,16 is a common pattern
> in
> I1a so 12,12,14,15,16 is a more likely original form, on the other hand I
> always had the impression that multistep jumps were mostly deletions i.e.
> 18
> to 15 rather than 15 to 18.
> Has lab error definitely been ruled out for the sample with the 18?
> Unfortunately the extended test for DYS464 is only available for R1bs.
> DYF399S1 might tell us more about the doubling mechanism but not the 15/18
> gap.
> Your best hope is to find and test Lovett cousins of the three men. This
> might resolve the triangulation issue. You could also look out for near
> matches on the databases which might suggest an ancestral form. Finally
> you
> could test additional markers in the hope of finding one which varies
> between the three.
>
> Gareth
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David F Reynolds" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 4:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Fw: DYS 464a, b, c, d, e,
>
>
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:04:26 -0700, Ray Lovett <>
> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > List, three members of our Lovett group has 5 DYS-464's where others
> seem
>> > to only have only 4. One member of our group has DYS-464a, b, c, d,
> e,
>> > 12, 12, 14, 16, 18. Two others have DYS-464 a, b, c, d, e, 12, 12,
> 14,15,
>> > 16. We have the same surname but no paper trails. I do not thank this
>> > could be a freak condition since we all have a DYS-464 a, b, c, d, e,
> and
>> > same surname. What do you thank is going on here, could this be a good
>> > question for this list?
>> > Ray Lovett
>>
>> Butler's 2003 paper on DYS464 listed values for 679 samples. The most
> common number of copies of the marker was four, but there were eight
> samples
> with 3 copies, five samples with 5 copies, seven samples with 6 copies and
> one sample with 7 copies listed. So having more than 4 copies of DYS 464
> is
> uncommon, but certainly not a "freak condition." :)
>>
>> See:
>> www.cstl.nist.gov/div831/strbase/pub_pres/ButlerISFG2003_DYS464.pdf
>
>
>
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