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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-09 > 1127413197


From: "Edward Felstead" <>
Subject: Re: Felstead TMRCA, hg E3b (was Re: [DNA] SMGF adjustments to FTDNA values) Mutation rate for DYS 449
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:19:57 +0100
References: <380-220059220214337977@M2W087.mail2web.com> <43308839.6020402@dna-fingerprint.com> <REME20050920182157@alum.mit.edu> <op.sxfa9wsxpqnhvj@pablo> <009001c5be39$39effe50$0100a8c0@chrissam> <op.sxfdbclzpqnhvj@pablo> <00c101c5be3e$424f7300$0100a8c0@chrissam> <001c01c5beb5$a6d62fe0$0100a8c0@chrissam> <op.sxg1kudbpqnhvj@pablo> <003e01c5bf02$b79062e0$0100a8c0@chrissam> <op.sxg849xapqnhvj@pablo>


David
Sorry to bother you yet again but I have contact with the individual with whom I have a
35/36 match.
The mismatch is just on the one DYS ie DYS 449.
I have been using a program I found to calculate the Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor
and to use it I have to enter a MUTATION RATE for DYS 449.
I have searched the internet and find the value for DYS 449(On average) to be 00.70.
This seems particularly high when compared with other positions.
In your experience is 00.70 a realistic value for the mutation rate of DYS 449.
Thank you
Best Wishes
Edward
----- Original Message -----
From: "David F Reynolds" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: Felstead TMRCA, hg E3b (was Re: [DNA] SMGF adjustments to FTDNA values)


>A haplotype is a specific set of marker values, i.e. the four Felstead entries discussed
>below are four separate haplotypes, as they are four distinct sets of values. Your son
>and yourself, assuming that all marker values match exactly, would share a single
>haplotype.
>
> Your specific haplotype consists of the marker values returned by FTDNA & SMGF for your
> genetic sample.
>
> A haplogroup is a set of haplotypes that is defined by specific slowly mutating markers.
> In the case of you and your distant cousins, even though your haplotypes are slightly
> different, you are all likely in haplogroup E3b. The common ancestor for haplogroup E3b
> lived many thousands of years ago, so two people both being in haplogroup E3b does not
> guarantee any genealogical connection, though. But if a Felstead is not in E3b, you are
> absolutely not related to them, within any meaningful timeframe.
>
> Given enough data points from living descendants, the haplotype for the common ancestor
> can sometimes be deduced. In your case, because you and the other three gentlemen have
> exact matches on 33/36 markers, then the odds are extremely high that your mutual common
> ancestor would have the same have same values as the four of you on those 33 markers.
> For the other three markers, given the small number of datapoints, with values evenly
> split between the four of you, it is impossible to say what the value was for your
> common ancestor. For DSY448, for example, some descendants have a value of 20, some a
> value of 21, so the most likely scenario is that your common ancestor had one or the
> other. (This is deliberately ignoring complicating factors which can occur, such as
> parallel or back mutations.)
>
> In any event, given the closeness of the matches and the even split between the
> differing values, it really doesn't make any difference in your case -- all three of the
> other Felstead lines are definitely worth following up on.
>
> Regards,
> david
>
>
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:18:03 -0700, Edward Felstead <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you David.
>> I am getting into this little by little.
>> If you bear with me for one more question please -
>> "What is an ancestral haplotype and how is it determined"?
>> I am getting confused between an HAPLOGROUP and an HAPLOTYPE.
>> Thanks again.
>> Best wishes
>> Edward
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David F Reynolds" <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:20 PM
>> Subject: Felstead TMRCA, hg E3b (was Re: [DNA] SMGF adjustments to FTDNA values)
>>
>>
>>> Edward,
>>>
>>> I'm assumming this is your ysearch record:
>>> http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?viewuid=HPF4Y&p=0
>>>
>>> There appears to be four lines of interest in the SMGF database; all match on 33
>>> markers
>>> (36 alleles), with 3 more varying between the four.
>>> #1 yours, going back five generations to William Felstead
>>> (DYS448=21, DYS449=31, Y-GATA-C4=22)
>>> #2 an English one, going back five generations to Joseph Felstead
>>> (DYS448=21, DYS449=32, Y-GATA-C4=22)
>>> #3 a Canadian one, going back three generations to a George Felstead
>>> (DYS448=20, DYS449=31, Y-GATA-C4=23)
>>> #4 an English one, going back five generations to another George Felstead
>>> (DYS448=20, DYS449=32, Y-GATA-C4=23)
>>>
>>> One point of interest is that all of these Felstead lines appear to be haplogroup E3b,
>>> which is relatively uncommon in Great Britain. I don't think there can be any doubt
>>> that
>>> all are descended from a common ancestor.
>>>
>>> SMGF's TMRCA calculation between yourself and #2 shows there is a 25% chance that you
>>> have common ancestor within 6 generation, 50% within 11 generations, and 75% within 17
>>> generations. Depending on who does the calculation (and the mutation rate and
>>> years/generation numbers they use), the numbers will vary, but the answer will always
>>> be
>>> in terms of a probability for a number of generations -- there is no way to calculate
>>> a
>>> precise answer.
>>>
>>> Question to TMRCA experts on the list: Given the above, how might one calculate a
>>> TMRCA
>>> for a common ancestor to all four lines, given that an ancestral haplotype cannot be
>>> deduced from the above data.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> david
>>>
>>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:06:24 -0700, Edward Felstead <> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear David
>>>> I followed the procedure as you outlined and it worked perfectly.
>>>> I now have a 36/36 with my son and a 35/36 match with another participant with the
>>>> SAME
>>>> NAME and from the SAME COUNTRY.
>>>> I am not well versed re DNA match's so I wonder if you could give me your opinion
>>>> with regard to my relationship with the person who I match 35/36.
>>>> I believe this is known as the MOST RECENT COMMON ANCESTOR and is expressed in
>>>> GENERATIONS?
>>>> Thank you for your help.
>>>> Best Wishes
>>>> Edward
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Edward Felstead" <>
>>>> To: <>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:51 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DNA] SMGF adjustments to FTDNA values
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks David -I will have a go at that!
>>>>> Edward
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "David F Reynolds" <>
>>>>> To: <>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:39 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DNA] SMGF adjustments to FTDNA values
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are 11 values which do not have FTDNA equivalents (i.e., FTDNA does not test
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> them). To find out what those values are is basically a trial-and-error process.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> way I do it to look at the values for each marker listed at:
>>>>>> http://smgf.org/marker_details.html
>>>>>> and start with the most common value for the particular marker, and then cycle from
>>>>>> there. Usually takes about 15-30 minutes, depending on how unusual some of the
>>>>>> values
>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> david
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:15:44 -0700, Edward Felstead <> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi David
>>>>>>> I was just reading your posting Re FTDNA and SMGF.
>>>>>>> I wonder if you could help me.
>>>>>>> I have a full 37 marker test with FTDNA but when I enter my values on SMGF I can
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> use 25 of the box's to enter my values as I don't have the FTDNA equivalents to
>>>>>>> SMGF.
>>>>>>> How did you manage to enter 36!
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>>> Edward
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "David F Reynolds" <>
>>>>>>> To: <>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:54 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [DNA] SMGF adjustments to FTDNA values
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I tick "Family Tree DNA" on the SMGF search page, I get these results:
>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/due6n
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Equivalent search if I tick "Do not convert (use SMGF standard)":
>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/d57vu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SMGF applies the following adjustments if "Family Tree DNA" is selected:
>>>>>>>> DYS19 +1
>>>>>>>> DYS448 +3
>>>>>>>> DYS461 -1
>>>>>>>> DYS463 +2
>>>>>>>> Y-GATA-H4 +1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The 36/36 match is me, the 35/36 (with the missing DYS463) match is my son.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> david
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ==============================
>>>>>>>> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
>>>>>>>> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
>>>>>>>> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ==============================
>>>>>> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
>>>>>> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
>>>>>> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ==============================
>>>>> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
>>>>> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
>>>>> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==============================
>>> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the
>>> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months.
>>> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ==============================
> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 267.11.3 - Release Date: 9/19/2005
>
>



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