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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-10 > 1128288804


From: <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] More S21 Results
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:33:24 +0100
References: <000201c5c6e9$d92000c0$0100a8c0@BigMem2>


John

thanks. Possibly the full DYS464 results are too much detail for the level
of analysis your page is aiming for.
What I had in mind was a single extra column with GGGG (or 4G) in the
"ancestral" row, CCCG (or 3C1G) in the "derived" row and + or - for each
sample according to the pattern detected by the DYS464X test.
The hypothesis which this analysis will test is that the GGGG to CCCG change
is a "virtual SNP" for R1b i.e.
(a) the derived CCCG pattern arises from a single common ancestor and has
not been duplicated or reversed (at least in any detectable numbers, just
like standard SNPs)
(b) the mutation occurred after one of the "universal" (for R1b1cs) SNPs
M343 P25 or M269 and before some or all of the rarer sub-group SNPs like
S21.
With sufficient data the pattern of + and - in the DYS464X column will
support this hypothesis or provide counter-examples i.e. inconsistencies
which can only be explained by parallel or back mutations. Since the markers
are in a palindrome region some interaction between copies is a possibility
but this should appear as non-standard patterns such as CCGG or CCCC.

Gordon Matheson (6KPR2) is our first known DYS464X-. Where would he belong
in your cluster diagrams?

Gareth

----- Original Message -----
From: "John McEwan" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 1:40 AM
Subject: RE: [DNA] More S21 Results


> Dear Gareth
> I have added columns for 464x test.
>
> I have previously skipped reading the messages for this and the 389 test
> in detail, but assume its "officially" recorded something like 15c 15c
> 16c 17g ...
>
> Cheers
>
> John McEwan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [mailto:]
> Sent: Sunday, 2 October 2005 11:55 a.m.
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DNA] More S21 Results
>
> John
>
> this is going beyond the original remit but I think it might be
> relevant.
> Would it be possible to record on your S21 page whether the testees have
> also had a DYS464X test with the expected 3c1g results? We have recently
> heard of one probable R1b whose DYS464 appears to be in the ancestral 4g
> format, suggesting that the 3c1g variation is downstream to the M269
> SNP.
> Many of the S21 list are names I recognise as having had a DYS464X test
> already, others may be considering this test as adding information on
> their R1b ancestry.
>
> Gareth


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