Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-10 > 1129237969

From: "Alister John Marsh" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] "Missing Data" in the SMGF Y-chromosome database.
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:12:49 +1300
References: <> <001201c5cf66$cc04af00$676860cb@Marsh> <001f01c5cfc3$ed9ba4e0$1b6860cb@Marsh> <001001c5d030$377e5140$71509045@Ken1>


Tout of curiosity I checked a R1b haplotype which I came across some time
ago, which I believe traces to the West Coast of Ireland [includes
24/10/29/29/25]. I suspect this may well be an "indigenous" Irish
haplotype. Although I searched under DYS463=25, the primary hit from the
West Coast of Ireland interestingly had no data for DYS463, but as I recall
from memory, I suspected it might be 23 based on what appeared to be related
families. The results for this were 12.1% missing DYS463. Of the results
with European origins given, all came from Ireland.

I think you have to be a bit careful when comparing 36 markers results with
reduced haplotypes. For example, if I compared the 8 slowest mutating
marker AMH haplotype, I would no doubt get more than 150 hits which matched
8/8, before any 7/7 haplotypes with a missing marker fed into the results.
I think to make a meaningful comparison, we need to compare 36 marker apples
with 36 marker apples. Even comparing 36 markers, there are a few quirks in
the system which can cause minor distortions, but over all, I don't think
they impact too much.

I my project, I have one haplotype which is similar to what some have
described as Fresian. I found it interesting that matches to this haplotype
only had 1.3% missing DYS463, when I was finding typically over 10% for
haplotypes tracing to England and Ireland. Perhaps I should check out a few
more Continental R1bs, to see what is happening. It has also surprised me
that although there are a steady trickle of haplotypes from Germany in the
haplotypes I have been checking, I have not yet found a single missing
DYS463 from Germany, and as far as I can recall, only 1 from Denmark. But
curiously, there are a small number of missing DYS463 from Spain/ Portugal
cropping up from time to time. (It has puzzled me that although my Y-DNA
has been in England probably for much more than 500 years, I seem to get
some of the closer matches to me in Spain/ Portugal.) There was 1 from


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] "Missing Data" in the SMGF Y-chromosome database.

> I wonder what's going on here? I checked a past tabulation of "Irish" R1b
> from Sorenson --- with 25/11/14 at DYS390,391,392 plus 4 other fixed
> to define the variety, and I found the DYS463 count only 1 haplotype short
> of the full count of 152 haplotypes. This seems to further isolate this
> "missing data" effect to a specific haplotype motif.
> Ken

> > [including DYS390/391/449/452/463- Sorenson calibration]
> >
> > A) R1b: 16.9% [24/11/28/29/25]
> > B) R1b: 15.6% [24/10/30/29/25]
> > C) R1b: 10.3% [24/10/28/29/25]
> > D) R1a: 10.3% (small sample)
> > E) R1b: 8.2% [23/11/30/30/24]
> > F) I1c: 6.6%
> > G) R1b: 3.4% [23/12/32/30/24]
> > H) R1b: 1.3% [23/11/30/30/24] (Fresian type?)
> > I) I1a: 0.9%
> > J) E3b: 0.0% (small sample)

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