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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-10 > 1130722042


From: David Faux <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Among Native American Men
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:27:22 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <a9.7ed8f63a.30964dba@aol.com>


Ok, recall that the Bosch study of Greenland Inuit were 17% R1b, and that these were consistent with a Scandinavian origin.

Lets consider one Native American group with which I have some familiarity - the Six Nations of Ontario Canada. The majority of surnames are European - the reason - actually many. Hill comes from residing "at the Hill" near Auriesville NY. Some names like Green were morphed from, in this case, Crine which was an adopted Dutch surname. However MacNaughton comes from a Scot; Dochstader (Doxtader) is from a German Palatine as is Maracle and I could go on and on by surname on the Res and you would quickly learn that it is no surprise that R1b should be common in many First Nations communities since there was "mixing" from the 1500s. A figure of 12% R1b is certainly not at all out of line and reflects the reality that there are likely many band members who not only have a "European" Y chromsome, but also mtDNA (since so many European captives were adopted into the tribe and many prolific to the point where I would wonder whether in Tyendinaga and Six Nations whether H outnumb!
ers A to
D together).

I wrote the book on Six Nations genealogy so have ample documentation to back up all but the genetic statements.

David Faux.

wrote:
Oppenheimer refers to haplogroup R as Ruslan (like Sykes giving names to
mtDNA haplogroups). With that little bit of insider knowledge, I found the
reference on page 329 (another keyword to narrow the search would be Baikal), but
things don't hang together too well. The SNP tree on page 329 shows M173-M207,
which would just be haplogroup R. But the text says that this is found in 30% of
Europeans and 12% of Native Americans, seemingly too low for the former and
too high for the latter, based on other studies. Oppenheimer said it was
"higher than could be explained by recent European admixture."

The footnote refers to haplotype 37 in Hammer's 2001 "Hierarchical patterns
of global human Y-chromosome diversity"
http://www.ftdna.com/pdf/Hammer_MBE_2001.pdf. This predates the 2002 YCC tree, but the percentages are as given in
Oppenheimer. However, the SNP for this haplotype is given as DYS194-469 (the
469 is written as a subscript).

Using Google Scholar, there were some references that implied DYS194-469 was
a synonym for P25, which would indeed be R1b. But going back to the YCC, P25
is shown as a mutation in position 79 of a 327bp amplicon inside DYS194, and
there are no listings for anything at position 469.

http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenclature_system/data.html

So my trail ends with a puzzlement, but I agree that 12% seems too high for
Native Americans. The nomenclature changes make it hard to pin down, though.

Ann Turner

In a message dated 10/28/05 9:10:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
writes:

> Using the "search inside the book" feature, I can't find any place where
> R1b
> is mentioned. Nor is there a place where the phrase "12 percent" is used.
> Searching on "Native American" and "haplogroup," there are lots of places
> where the assertion might have been made, but wasn't.
>
> I really don't understand the rationale for the statement that 12 percent of
> NA men are R1b. I have never seen any such finding in academic genotyping
> studies that focus on the Americas. I think the "12 percent R1b" figure must
> be a misunderstanding of something else entirely. Please correct me if I am
> wrong.
>
> David Wilson
>
>
>
> On 10/28/2005 8:34:19 PM, ljcrain () wrote:
> >Allen; In "The Real Eve" by Stephen Oppenheimer,
> >
> >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786711922/103-4236381-
> >5575055?v=glance
> >
> >the author contends that about 12% of Native American men are R1b Y
> >haplogroup. This is considered too many to be attributable to European
> >admixture.
> >
> >I wonder if there are any ongoing studies listing their unique markers.
> >
> >You have brought up an interesting point.
> >
> >Janet Crain




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