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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-11 > 1131562145


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:49:05 -0700
References: <001101c5e552$9149a990$f3de0818@mycomputer> <000601c5e55b$6711eda0$3201a8c0@southcoastplaza.com> <000b01c5e55c$b48b7f00$3201a8c0@southcoastplaza.com>


When I defined the Frisian variety of R1b it included a low DYS447 (24 I
believe) and more importantly (because it is slower mutating marker) the H4
= 11 (DHAH convention) values. SMTNE does not have either if I read the
chart right, as well as not having the Frisian variety motif at DYS464 as
you mention. Most R1b with the DYS390 = 23 is not of the Frisian variety.
Being just "a mutation away" from the demographically dominant Atlantic
Modal R1b, there is going to be lots of 390 = 23 which has an "Atlantic"
deep ancestry.

Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Wilson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21


> And I guess I should have studied John McEwan's S21 page
> (http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/s21.htm) before I submitted that last
> post, because I see that is where the distinction you described is
> reflected.
>
> Hart 7FZUQ is part of John's Cluster 22 ("Frisian") and Hart SMTNE is
> grouped with Cluster 18. SMTNE actually has 15-15-16-17 at 464, but that
> is still closer to the R1b overall modal than it is to Frisian modal.
>
> Both these guys may have the surname Hart, but they belong to separate
> family lines. Their last common ancestor lived long before the adoption of
> surnames.
>
> David Wilson
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "D. Wilson" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] S21
>
>
>> Lewis, I looked at the Harts on Ysearch and what you describe is
>> completely possible result depending on which Harts you are comparing.
>> For example, 7FZUQ and 8Q274 both look like "Frisian" R1b, and that's
>> where most of the S21+ samples that are publicly known have been landing.
>> But if you look at 3599R, that does not fit the "Frisian" pattern and in
>> fact has some of the modal values of R1b clusters that are usually found
>> to be S21-. So it is completely possible for several of your Harts to be
>> M269+ (that is, R1b1c -- R1b for short) and yet be distinguished from
>> one another on the basis of S21.
>>
>> For an at-a-glance comparison, look at the DYS464 values. If you see
>> 15-16-17-18, think Frisian R1b and S21+. If you see 15-15-17-17, think
>> mainstream R1b and S21-.
>>
>> I am NOT offering that comparison as a completely reliable diagnostic
>> tool for predicting S21 status. It's just a rough rule of thumb that
>> seems to have some authority based on what we know now. We need to know a
>> lot more about the S21 haplotypes and their variation. I'm still hoping
>> EA will be able to have a big report out by the end of December, as David
>> F. once indicated they might. In the interim, John McEwan's S21 page is
>> doing a very good job of keeping us all up to date on this situation.
>>
>> David Wilson
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "LewisHart" <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:25 AM
>> Subject: [DNA] S21
>>
>>
>>> David Faux,
>>> I match one of my participants in the Hart group with all markers
>>> upstream and including M269+. All markers down stream of M269+ are
>>> negative. He has S21- and I have S21+. Does that sound like a typo or is
>>> it to early to make a judgement with S21?
>>>
>>>
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