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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-11 > 1131565061


From: "Mark MacDonald" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] S21
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:37:41 -0600
In-Reply-To: <000401c5e55e$42c54c00$71509045@Ken1>


In Clan Donald I have six 13 23 14 10 11 14 and three 13 23 14 10 11 15 whom
I have been trying to decide as " Colla" mutants at 390 or as norse. I
believe that McEwan doesn't show any of either signature. Their 464 values
are all over 15 16 17 17( three of them) 18 18 18 18 15 15 16 18 16 16
16 18 14 15 16 17 and 15 15 17 17. Family names include MacDonald,
Donaldson, MacKechnie, Wilkinson and McRaney.


By comparison my 3 of 31 probable or clear R1a Somerleds have mutated at
390 in 650 years.

Any suggestions or predictions assuming a 1700 year mutation window on any
combination?


Mark MacDonald
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Nordtvedt [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:49 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21

When I defined the Frisian variety of R1b it included a low DYS447 (24 I
believe) and more importantly (because it is slower mutating marker) the H4
= 11 (DHAH convention) values. SMTNE does not have either if I read the
chart right, as well as not having the Frisian variety motif at DYS464 as
you mention. Most R1b with the DYS390 = 23 is not of the Frisian variety.
Being just "a mutation away" from the demographically dominant Atlantic
Modal R1b, there is going to be lots of 390 = 23 which has an "Atlantic"
deep ancestry.

Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Wilson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21


> And I guess I should have studied John McEwan's S21 page
> (http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/s21.htm) before I submitted that last
> post, because I see that is where the distinction you described is
> reflected.
>
> Hart 7FZUQ is part of John's Cluster 22 ("Frisian") and Hart SMTNE is
> grouped with Cluster 18. SMTNE actually has 15-15-16-17 at 464, but that
> is still closer to the R1b overall modal than it is to Frisian modal.
>
> Both these guys may have the surname Hart, but they belong to separate
> family lines. Their last common ancestor lived long before the adoption of

> surnames.
>
> David Wilson
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "D. Wilson" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] S21
>
>
>> Lewis, I looked at the Harts on Ysearch and what you describe is
>> completely possible result depending on which Harts you are comparing.
>> For example, 7FZUQ and 8Q274 both look like "Frisian" R1b, and that's
>> where most of the S21+ samples that are publicly known have been landing.

>> But if you look at 3599R, that does not fit the "Frisian" pattern and in
>> fact has some of the modal values of R1b clusters that are usually found
>> to be S21-. So it is completely possible for several of your Harts to be
>> M269+ (that is, R1b1c -- R1b for short) and yet be distinguished from
>> one another on the basis of S21.
>>
>> For an at-a-glance comparison, look at the DYS464 values. If you see
>> 15-16-17-18, think Frisian R1b and S21+. If you see 15-15-17-17, think
>> mainstream R1b and S21-.
>>
>> I am NOT offering that comparison as a completely reliable diagnostic
>> tool for predicting S21 status. It's just a rough rule of thumb that
>> seems to have some authority based on what we know now. We need to know a

>> lot more about the S21 haplotypes and their variation. I'm still hoping
>> EA will be able to have a big report out by the end of December, as David

>> F. once indicated they might. In the interim, John McEwan's S21 page is
>> doing a very good job of keeping us all up to date on this situation.
>>
>> David Wilson
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "LewisHart" <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:25 AM
>> Subject: [DNA] S21
>>
>>
>>> David Faux,
>>> I match one of my participants in the Hart group with all markers
>>> upstream and including M269+. All markers down stream of M269+ are
>>> negative. He has S21- and I have S21+. Does that sound like a typo or is

>>> it to early to make a judgement with S21?
>>>
>>>
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