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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-11 > 1131769728


From: "Jim Lawson" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Haplotype Q and Autosomes
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:28:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <005f01c5e714$dbd3f330$3201a8c0@southcoastplaza.com>


Thanks David, David, Doug and others for the helpful information. I realized
after I sent my post that mtDNA should have been xDNA (is that the way to
write it?). I knew mtDNA is passed through the female and so tripped on it.
I also knew that there is both Q and Q3 among Native Americans but had no
idea of the percentages. I feel that the Q Haplotype among Native Americans
is from an earlier migration, earlier than 12,000 years ago. However, I find
that the Na Dene came later than the mostly Q3 which came around 12,000. So
where were the Na Dene hiding? It should have been intuitive to me that the
shovel shaped incisors would be found among any descendants from the Asian
contributors of Q. I suppose I hoped that it might give me a clue as where
to look.
I should also mention that when I plug my markers into Whit's calculator, it
gives me a value of 92 and if I change my DSY385b from 19 to 17, I get a
value of 100. Does the 100 mean that it is modal? By the way, the other
markers are: 393 = 13, 390 =23, 19 =13, 391 = 10, 385a = 13, 385b = 19, 426
= 12, 388 = 12, 439 = 12, 389i = 13, 392 = 14, 389ii = 29 These can be seen
at Ysearch under MREQH.
Looking at David Faux's answer to Ken, and at Robert Paine and Bill Lowe's
values on the calculator of just above 70, it would appear that if I am that
close to the modal and the 12, 12 matches for the Norse don't match up with
Native American Q, then I should be looking at a Native American ancestor.
I realize that further testing, especially for M242, will add more
information and make the division between the Eastern and Western migrations
more clear. And yes, I do plan to do more testing for both more markers and
SNPs down the road.
One other question; if I am two repeats away from modal and my nearest 12,
12 matches are none at 12,12 and 2 at one step(1 Native American and 1
Sweden and 1 at two step (Sweden) and 7 at three step ( 1 England, 1 Poland,
1 Sweden and 1 Denmark with the other 3 being Native American how is the
modal determined? (I.e. should not I have at least some 12, 12 matches?)

Again, thanks, Jim Lawson








-----Original Message-----
From: D. Wilson [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 6:09 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Haplotype Q and Autosomes

David (and Doug too, who contacted me off list) --

Many thanks. I was obviously underinformed about Q in this hemisphere, and
now I'm not. Any day on which you learn something is a good day, and my day
just got better.

Jim, on this basis consider yourself restored to uncertainty.

Thanks again,

David W.


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Faux" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Haplotype Q and Autosomes


> David and Jim:
>
> Native American Y chromosome include Q3 (M3, M19), Q (P36, M242), P
> (M45), and C (RPS4Y).
>
> Using Bortolini et al. (AJHG, 73:524-539, 2003) as an example, a total of
> 347 Amerinds from South America were genotyped as follows:
>
> Q3 = 83%; Q = 9%; P = 4% and C = 0%
>
> Looking at 48 Na Dene of North America, the following figures applied:
>
> Q3 = 6%; Q = 25%; P = 63%; and C = 6%
>
> Depending on location in North and South America Q without the M3
> derivation is actually quite common.
>
> David Faux.
>
> "D. Wilson" <> wrote:
> Jim,
>
> To the best of my knowledge the Native American Q population belongs
> entirely to subclade Q3. I suppose it is possible that some Q* people came
> across the land bridge to the New World at or near the same time the Q3
> population did, but I don't recall any studies of New World populations
> that
> found undifferentiated Q haplogroup individuals. If the studies exist but
> I
> have missed them, I hope someone will call them to my attention.
>
> What this means is that you, who SNP-tested positive for haplogroup Q but
> negative for subhaplogroup Q3, should probably look to the Q population of
> Northern Europe (and before that, North Central Asia) for your patrilineal
> ancestry.
>
> The feature your dentist described is known as the shovel-shaped incisor.
> It
> is found broadly among Native Americans and some Asian populations.
> According to a Google search I just ran, there are individuals with
> shovel-shaped incisors in Sweden. So tooth morphology by itself does not
> point unambiguously to Native American ancestry.
>
> I am sure you are right about autosomal genes controlling tooth shape. I
> would not expect to see such a gene on the Y-chromosome. The traits could
> be
> inherited from an autosomal chromosome carried by either parent. It
> wouldn't
> be on mtDNA, a specialized form of non-nuclear DNA whose genes are
> involved
> with metabolic processes and have nothing to do with body morphology
> (though
> a bad mtDNA mutation might lead to defective metabolism that could be
> associated with a physical manifestation.)
>
> So the analysis boils down to this: dental characteristics permit either
> Native American or North Eurasian ancestry. The SNP-determined haplogroup
> Q
> (rather than Q3) points strongly to North Eurasian patrilineal origins. I
> think that probably answers your question.
>
> David Wilson
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Lawson"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 8:13 AM
> Subject: [DNA] Haplotype Q and Autosomes
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello list, I wonder if anyone could speak to this question. I am
>> Haplotype
>> Q, that is P36+ M3-, and we do not yet know if my line came through
>> Native
>> Americans or from a western migration from Asia toward Scandinavia. My
>> questions is this, my dentist told me that my teeth indicated Native
>> American ancestry but would that be also true for a Q haplotype that came
>> to
>> this country via the western route? I would assume that the shape of my
>> teeth would be determined by autosomes and not by the yDNA markers for
>> Haplotype Q and that these autosomes could come from either mtDNA or yDNA
>> Or
>> both.
>>
>> Fantastic list, Jim Lawson
>>
>>
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