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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-11 > 1131929311


From: ellen Levy <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Red hair blue eyes etc
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:48:31 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <20051113233011.24771.qmail@web81102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Gary:

I'm afraid I've missed your point, but I am open to
further discussion. Again, the processes operating
within the last 500 years -whether in Latin America or
the British Isles - are far different that the
processes that would led to cultural, linguistic and
(in my view) genetic replacement 6000 years ago. And
my understanding is that Latin America (which is a
very large territory to discuss) is composed not only
of NA elements, but a variety of peoples, including
European and African. Thus, there is genetic mixture
that is NOT being postulated for the inhabitants of
the Celtic-speaking areas of the British Isles.

Even in Turkey where you had wholesale language
replacement of an earlier non-Turkish language, you
had invaders bringing the new language into the
region. Estimates of the invader genetic legacy in
Turkey vary from 10% to more than 30%.

Ellen Coffman

--- Gary Felix <> wrote:

> Ellen,
> what about latin America? Documented NA history was
> burned and a culture changed to such a degree we
> leave it to the archaeologist to uncover and this
> just 500 years ago. Religion and conquest can also
> influence culture and it sphere can far exceed its
> borders.
>
> Gary
> Mexico DNA Project Admin.
>
> ellen Levy <> wrote:
> Gareth:
>
> Yes, sadly enough, that's true. But I don't
> necessarily think the same political, social and
> economic processes that have led to the replacement
> of
> English over Celtic language usage in places like
> Ireland are the same as 4000-3000 years ago. These
> people didn't have modern media - no TV, no
> telephones, no leisurely travel. And in terms of
> modern history, you have movement of various groups
> from England into much of Wales, Scotland and
> Ireland
> bringing English speakers. And furthermore, there's
> no
> evidence that Celtic languages represented the
> "lingua
> franca," as English has come to be seen, of 4000
> years
> ago that would motivate people even in the far
> reaches
> of western Ireland to adopt the Celtic tongue.
>
> More importantly, all these theories of
> Celts=indigenous Britons ignores the archaeological
> evidence (which I posted to the list a few months
> back
> concerning Ireland in particular and can be found in
> the list archives) of multiple continental invasions
> stretching back to 4000-3000 BC into the British
> Isles. These people had different burial styles,
> different pottery, different housing styles. I'm not
> saying that it isn't possible that an indigenous
> genetic element continues to exist in contemporary
> populations of the British Isles. But maintaining
> that 95% of Ireland's population, for example, is
> descended from that indigenous genetic element
> ignores
> the linguistic and archaeological data.
>
> Ellen Coffman
>
> --- wrote:
>
> > Ellen
> >
> > that's a pretty fair description of how the Celtic
> > languages have *lost*
> > ground in the western parts of the British Isles
> > over the last 500 years or
> > so - to the same nice little language now being
> > learnt all around the world
> > for all sorts of economic, political and cultural
> > reasons.
> > Language replacement happens and it can happen
> > incredibly rapidly.
> >
> > (I agree with just about everything else you said)
> >
> > Gareth
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "ellen Levy"
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 9:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [DNA] Red hair blue eyes etc
> >
> >
> > > Andrew & List:
> >
> > > Then how to explain the adoption of
> Indo-European
> > > Celtic language in the British Isles, a language
> > > family that is clearly not "indigenous." I
> > suppose
> > > they just decided it was a nice little language
> to
> > > start speaking and did away with their other,
> > > non-Indo-European language?
> >
> > > Ellen Coffman
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
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> Collection.
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> >
> >
>
>
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