GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-11 > 1132771198


From: "Roberta J. Estes" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Genographic and wrong listed SNPs
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:39:58 -0500
In-Reply-To: <20051123183507.27901.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com>


I didn't know if you were looking at something like that or something new.
Thanks.

Roberta

-----Original Message-----
From: David Faux [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 1:35 PM
To:
Subject: RE: [DNA] Genographic and wrong listed SNPs

Roberta:

For this I will have to refer you to the Archives where the matter has
been discussed at length - it is a long and detailed story. If I am
correct, the entire history of Scandinavia (at least Sweden and Norway) will
have to be re-written.

David Faux.

"Roberta J. Estes" <> wrote:
David,

Events that occurred 420AD? What are you looking at specifically?

Roberta

-----Original Message-----
From: David Faux [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 11:54 AM
To:
Subject: RE: [DNA] Genographic and wrong listed SNPs

Bill:

Actually I would guess that within a year or so things should be much more
clear. In the bigger picture I need to focus on getting R1a Central Asian
samples tested for YCAIIa,b since my whole migration theory relating to
events that occurred circa 420 AD hinges on finding the 19,21 motif in the
Altai - all else adds up.

David Faux.

--
Dr. David K. W. Faux
President
Ethnoancestry USA, Inc.
4141 Ball Road #180
Cypress, CA 90630 USA
http://www.ethnodna.com


-------------- Original message --------------

> David..
>
> ".... It is also possible that in Orkney, as in Central Asia, there are
both
> P* and Q* individuals. Of course in theory there could have been back
> mutations that might explain the data..."
>
> This is interesting. Keep us posted on what Jim finds with the Orkney men.

>
> Wish we could find a trail of "bread crumbs" back to the Altai region with

> SNPs and STRS..
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Faux [mailto:]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:42 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Genographic and wrong listed SNPs
>
>
> Doug:
>
> That is a very excellent reply from someone on the NGS team. Since I am
> mentioned in the communique perhaps I should comment. While in general I
> agree entirely with the stated rationale, and that to date the literature
> has not shown instances of for example P36- and M242+ in the same
> individual, that may be for the simple fact that few have actually tested
> both makers in a single individual. Thus the redundancy conceptualization
> may be little more than an assumption, and recent empirical observations
> support this contention. Presently we have someone who has tested P19+
with
> FTDNA and M170- with us. In theory this should be impossible, but our
> direct sequencing for M170 could not be more clear. Thus either our
> competitor made a mistake (which would have implications for others who
> tested P19+) or we have to throw the redundancy concept out the window. We

> have ordered a P19 test for this individual. This is not a unique case.
> Jim has been testing his Orkney samples!
> that, on
> the basis of haplotype, are stongly Q but of these some are P36+ and
others
> P36. We will be testing each sample for M242 and, again in theory, if P36+

> therefore M242+, but what if the P36- are also M242+ then this complicates

> the picture as we will have found two lineages suggesting possibly that
the
> P36 mutation occurred after the one at M242. More research is needed to
> differentiate between hese various hypotheses. Clearly our findings here
> could have implications for the NGS and the research community, as well as

> for those of us who do commercial testing.
>
> David Faux.
>
> Doug McDonald wrote:
> I sent a complaint about listing wrong SNPs to National
> Geographic, and received this reply:
>
> *************************************
>
> Dear Mr. McDonald,
>
> Thank you for your message. We absolutely agree that the integrity of
> the science is of the utmost importance to the project..
>
> The issue of redundant SNP testing and redundant SNP reporting has long
> been an issue in the field of population genetics. The reason confusion
> arises is because there are often more than one mutational event that
> defines a particular branch on the phylogeny. In the case y-chromosome
> Haplogroup Q there are actually three different defining markers: P36,
> M242, MEH2. Typically a testing service, such as Family Tree DNA or
> David Faux's company, will only test for one of these markers in order
> to make determination of the Haplogroup Q assignment, an effect of the
> inherent redundancy in testing for more than one. We can say this with
> some certainty because it has never been recorded in the primary
> literature a case where an individual is positive for one of these
> markers and negative for another, which is why all three can be
> considered defining events for the haplotype.
>
> Successfully articulating the concept that inherited mutations can be
> used as signposts back through our ancestry can be difficult to
> communicate to a broad audience . It is our experience that indicating
> that more than one mutational event can be representative of a split in
> the human family tree (such as either P36 or M242 for HgQ) can actually
> confuse the concept of mutational inheritance. What is important from
> our perspective is emphasizing the migratory stories that are associated
> with each haplogroup assignment. These drive the anthropological and
> genealogical information that make this testing informative.
>
> Nevertheless, your point is still valid that the reporting needs to be
> consistent with the testing. We are currently testing for P36 but
> incorporating M242 into the SNP analysis. We will revise the reporting
> so it is completely consistent with the tested markers to mitigate any
> potential confusion.
>
> Thank you for your detailed comments and interest in the project.
>
>
> ********************************
>
> So they do listen, at least eventually. We shall se what the
> actual response eventually is about this issue. Perhaps
> a few more e-mails about other such cases can get a
> general response where they always report what they actually test.
>
> Doug McDonald
>
>
>
>
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