Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-12 > 1134791678

From: "Lowe DNA" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] RE: Are you missing the Geno boat?
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:54:40 -0600
In-Reply-To: <>


Twelve markers are not enough in many cases. That is a truth that can't be
dismissed. I have R1b folks that match literally dozens of men of other
surnames. I don't know where 10% comes from with 12 markers; however, even
when 25 markers in many cases is not enough.

Again, haplogroups are defined by SNPs not STRS. One gentleman here today
was told he was Q*. but a later SNP test confirmed R1b. Imagine his
feelings. How many more cases are like this ? It is time that all basic DNA
STR tests must also include a basic SNP test.

Bottom line. If a coordinator advises folks to take the 12 markers tests in
your project(s) that is their choice. I always recommend starting at the
basic 25 and hope they will purchase an additional SNP test from FTDNA; or,
if they are more serious then perhaps they can decide on a deep SNP test at

Thanks as always.


-----Original Message-----
From: John Chandler [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] RE: Are you missing the Geno boat?

Bill wrote:
> You are correct...and now we are finding out that 12 is not enough even
> Haplogroup determination.

You can be a pessimist and focus on the 10% of cases where 12 is not
enough, or you can be an optimist and focus on the 90% where 12 *is*
enough. The fact that it's not 100% does not come as a surprise. We
on this list have heard reports that the success rate of the
Genographic Project haplogroup algorithm is lower than expected, but
it's clear from the participation fee that they were expecting a *very*
high success rate.

> Many of the folks who write in about 12 markers are newbies who are just
> getting their feet wet with this new genealogical tool and we shall get
> more of these unless the DNA testing companies delete this test from their
> product line in favor of 25, 37, or now the FTDNA 37 + the EA 18.

You really don't get it. Cost *is* a factor in this game. It would
be insane for a testing company to withdraw the clear market leader
from the public.

> And that is a unique observation about the GENOGRAPHIC project. It might
> well be a clandestine CIA project as we have not heard from Wells or his
> colleagues. Would not if be a shame to perform a 100,000 NRY STR tests at
> the 12 marker level and find out that that was not enough to achieve the
> goals that were set forth....?

The public participation was announced with two goals: to spark public
interest in the scientific portion of the project and to raise a bit of
cash to support same. These goals are both being met very well, thanks.

John Chandler

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