Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-01 > 1136846683

From: "Sasson Margaliot" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Y-DNA Haplogroup L in Italy
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:44:43 +0200
References: <>

> Sasson, you are talking about "Greek-Caucasian" and
> "Indo-Iranian lineages" as if they really exist. What
> is the "Greek-Caucasian lineage"?

Geographically, there is Eastern L (in India and Pakistan), and Western L
(in Greece and around). I suggested hypothesis (just a guess) that both
Eastern and Western L are related to speakers of Indo-European languages.
Within framework of this hypothesis, I have called Eastern Ls Indo-Iranians
because this is how this branch of Indo-Europeans is called.

> By your mention of Eastern Europe, I assume you are
> speaking of the steppe zone of Russia/Central Asia
> from whence the Indo-Europeans and Indo-Iranians are
> believed to have originated?

No, I am not speaking about earliest Indo-Europeans, whoever they are and
whereever they have originated. I am speaking about third millenium BCE,
just prior to movement of some Indo-Europeans to Iran and Pakistan.

> In fact, the new Sengupta study on India contradicts
> your theory (I'm at least relieved that you are now
> presenting it as theory rather than as fact).

It's nice you are calling it it theory rather than speculation, but in fact
it is just a speculation.

> I suppose your theory could be supported if the L
> samples from Greece and Italy fell into the new
> L3-M357 sub-clade prevelant almost exclusively in
> Pakistan or L*-M20, but almost completely absent from
> India.

The right way to check out a hypothesis like that is to see what the SNPs
downstream of L can tell us about their history.

> Ll-76 it occurs with much
> greater frequency among the Davidian castes than in
> Indo-European speakers or among the tribal groups of
> India.

L1 is a sub-lineage of Eastern L located in area adjacent to speakers of
Dravidian languages. It is not impossible that L1 men replased the non-L men
and adopted Dravidian languages.

> As for haplogroup K, as far as I know, there is no
> genetic evidence linking it to the early Indo-Iranian
> populations of Persia.

K2 is found in Iraq and Ethiopia, but probably not in Iran.

> I don't object to a theory
> that K2 may have been present among the ancient Greeks
> (of the Bronze Age),

This is exactly what I suggested with respect to the group K2 - that it was
present among the Greeks of Bronze Age.

> but it seems a big, unsupportable
> jump from that theory to arguing for a Persian/Iranian
> origin for K2.

I did not suggest Iranian connection for K2. Even for L, I suggest European
origin common for both Eastern and Western L.

> If you read the Flores paper, it gives
> some percentages for K2 among populations in Spain.

In that K2 is rather similar to Western L - they both are found in what once
were Greek colonies.

Sasson Margaliot

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