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From: "Mark MacDonald" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:07:30 -0600
In-Reply-To: <144.54cc698b.30fe093a@aol.com>


John

I apologise for thinking that your argument ended with your first paragraph.
Your piece was far more thoughtful;however, the chief line for the Maguire
does test "Colla". When I first created the hypothesis in early reports to
Clan participants in 2003 and 2004, one of the first cross checks for the
theory was with Maguire data. Although Patrick Guinness is "only" an
amateur researcher like the rest of us, he has as fine a combined
understanding both of irish history and genealogy and irish genetics as the
rest of us could ever wish to achieve. He has indicated that there are at
least two well documented chief lines which are "Colla" and has confirmed
for some time that he believes the hypothesis is on the right track. I have
personally spoken to a representative of one line descended from Maguire
chiefs.

You are absolutely correct that Clan Donald has historically connected with
descent from Colla. Quoting from one of our 14th or 15th century poets, the
frontspiece of that Vol III of our history says:"The sovereignity of the
Gael to the Clan Colla, It is right to proclaim it". You may correctly state
that our own study demonstrates that Somerled was not Colla in his pure
paternal line. We are only interested, in testing to the extent possible,
the accuracy of our histories. We are not wedded to any particular results.
The proof that Somerled probably only descended from Colla through a female
line is of great interest but so also is the McDonnell Earl of Antrim a
Somerled descendant through a female.

You ask a very interesting question: why were the Airghialla providing
military support for the Ceneal Loarn? My thesis is consistent; yours
doesn't fit on that point.

With respect to the O Neill common lines through Conn of the Hundred
Battles, we can say that if Conn existed and if the ONeill line is the one
announced by Trinity Dublin of the numererous potential candidates among
ONeill, then the Collas who were regularly allies of the ONeills were not
descended in a pure paternal line. Those two lines heavily inbred even as
the OCahan gave fighting men as a dowry to Angus Og MacDonald to bind us to
that branch of the ONeills.

Of the members of our study named MacDonald in any spelling, the largest
group is the "Colla" kindred, next largest is AMH +, with ONeill and
Somerled virtually tied for third.

Mark MacDonald
-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:48 AM
To:
Subject: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata

I find myself quite baffled by posts on this list which somehow confuse the

line of Colla Uais and the Irish Dal Riata in Scotland. By legend, the
Irish
Dal Riata in the persons of Fergus Mor, Angus and Loarn, sons of Erc, did
invade and settle in Scotland sometime in the 5th century AD. Old Irish
genealogical manuscripts preserve this pedigree in the line of the Kings of

Scotland.

Rawlinson B.502 (ca. 1120 AD).

ITEM RÍG ALBAN
.
¶1697] Máel Snechtae m. Lulaich m. Gillai Comgáin m. Máel Brigti m. Ruaidrí

m.
Domnaill m. Morggáin m. Cathamail m. Ruaidrí m. Ailgelaich m. Ferchair m.
Feradaich
m. Fergusa m. Nechtain m. Colmáin m. Báetáin m. Echdach m. Muiredaich m.
Loairn m.
Eircc m. Echach Muinremuir.

There is also a confused variant of the same legend in Keating's History
which makes the three sons of Erc (Fergus Mor, Loarn and Angus) brothers of

Muirchertach Mac Erca, the Ui Neill Irish High King. Some old clan
histories
(such as the MacNeills) quote this version of the legend. But it's
obviously
a duplicate of the earlier legend correcting deducing Erc from Echach
Muinremuir as in the Rawlinson pedigree.

But whether it is true or not the legend of the Irish Dal Riata is quite
distinct from that of Colla Uais, one of three brothers said to be the
ancestors of the Irish Airgialla, to which the MacDonalds are linked by
pedigrees
dating to the 14th century (G2 ms). In the infamous ms. 1467 of Skene,
only
the MacDonalds have a pedigree linked to Colla Uais. The great majority of

Scottish clans are linked to descendants of the Irish Dal Riata; a few are
linked to the O'Neills of Ireland through the person of Anradan. Some are
admittedly Norse in origin.

That being said, there were historical links between the Airgialla of
Ireland and western Scotland. Sellar mentioned most of them in his valiant
if
flawed defense of the MacDonald pedigree. And no one yet has volunteered
an
explanation for why the Airgialla would be listed as a fighting force among
the
Cenel Loarn in the Shenchus Fer nAlban (10th century). Are they the same
as
the Airgialla or Ireland or just have the same tribal name? No one seems
to
know or venture an opinion.

"he expeditionary force of the Cenel Loairnd, seven hundred men, but the
seventh hundred is
from the Airgialla. If it be an expeditionary force, moreover, for
sea-voyaging, two seven-benchers from every twenty houses of them."

I"ve seen a lot of talk on this list about a Colla DNA pattern. Or is
it
really a Dal Riata DNA pattern, because the two things are quite different
in historical terms.. Both lines (Airgialla and Dal Riata) are tied into
the
stem of the Ui Neill line in Ireland at different places, and both are most

likely pure fiction. O Rahilly (Early Irish History and Mythology)
identifies the Irish Dal Riata as Erainn; quite distinct from the Q-Celtic
Ui Neill
tribe to whom they were linked by pedigree. The Erainn were Belgae,
originally
from northern Gaul, with branches in Britain and Ireland.

When it comes to DNA and the Dal Riata in Ireland there is probably not
much to check. The royal house removed itelf to Scotland as portrayed in
the
sons of Erc legend; and although the territory name survived in Antrim and
is
still known as the Ruta or Route no surnames are associated with the Dal
Riata in later Irish history. No known clans in Ireland descend from this
stock.

And what, pray tell, happened to all the Picts or Cruithin in Scotland (or

Pretani). In terms of pedigrees and clan histories they all disappeared,
except for a brief mention in legends mentioning Kenneth MacAlpin uniting
the
kingdoms of the Picts and Scots.

The line of the Collas in Ireland is also a complete mystery. O Rahilly
didn't buy their descent from the Ui Neill of Tara; he thought they were a
ragtag collection of mercenery tribes who served the Ui Neill of Tara as
fighting forces and were rewarded with land in Ulster taken from the
Ulaidh.

So what is it you have really found? A genetic pattern applicable to the

Collas or one applicable to the Dal Riata? If it's a Colla pattern there
should be connections to the Maguires, McMahons, O Flynns and other
Airgialla
tribes of Ireland. But DNA researchers in Ireland are reporting
difficulties
in establishing links between the Airgialla tribes, in particular, between
the
Maguires and the MacMahons, indicating the old tale of the Collas may not
be
true after all. And as far as I am aware there is nothing left to test in
Ireland in terms of the old Irish Dal Riata, since no identifiable
surnames
or chieftains survive..

The truth probably is the Scottish clans, especially those in the west,
were probably a mixture of tribes, including remnants of the old Picts,
some
Brythonic tribes, Erainn from Ireland (the Dal Riata) and possibly some
Airgialla tribes from Ireland. Possibly even some Ui Neill tribes, if the
old
legends have any truth in them at all. One thing is sure - there was a lot
of
coming and going between the western parts of Scotland and Ireland over the

centuries. And the old legends of the settlement of Scotland probably only
tell
part of the story and may not even get that exactly right


John






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