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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:19:46 EST



In a message dated 1/17/2006 9:48:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

You are just missing a few traditional generations. It is not confusion.
The traditional descent of Colla Uais to Erc reads Colla, Eochai, Arthur
a/k/a Criomhthan( per Kilbride MS of 1450 and Munro MS of 1549), Erc father
of Fergus Mor who "commanded the Dalriads that settled in Argyll after the
death of Lorne, his elder brother. His grandson acquired the district of
Kintyre first allotted to Angus by his marriage with the daughter of Murdoch
Angus's son. The three brothers, the sons of Erc, landed in Argyll in 466,
and Erc is said to have died in 502." Rev. Archibald & Rev. Angus MacDonald,
vol III, The Clan Donald (Inverness 1904) at p 175 citing the Tighearnac Col
de Reb, Alba.



There seems to be some confusion in the sources you're quoting, in that they
do not agree with traditional Irish pedigrees.

In Rawlinson (and other genealogical ms), the three Collas are said to be
descended from Cairpre Lifeachair.

Cormac Ulfota.
Coirpre Liphechair
Eochaid Doimlen (his brother was Fiachu Sraiptene)
Colla Uais

This is the line that would later become the Ui Neill of Ireland.

Fiachu Sraiptene
Muiredach Tírech
Eochuid Mugmedón
NIal 'of the Nine Hostages'

The line of the Dal Riata is much more difficult to trace out in Irish ms.

Rawlinson B.502 ends as follows:

ITEM RÍG ALBAN.

¶1697] Máel Snechtae m. Lulaich m. Gillai Comgáin m. Máel Brigti m. Ruaidrí
m.
Domnaill m. Morggáin m. Cathamail m. Ruaidrí m. Ailgelaich m. Ferchair m.
Feradaich
m. Fergusa m. Nechtain m. Colmáin m. Báetáin m. Echdach m. Muiredaich m.
Loairn m.
Eircc m. Echach Muinremuir.

But check out the pedigree for the Kings of Scotland (Dal Riata) given in
John of Fordun's "Scottichronicon" (ca. 1345).

_http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/fordun.htm_
(http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/fordun.htm)

This pedigree will seem at first glance nearly incomprehensible because
Fordun is quoting from a version of the Milesian legends quite different from
that normally found in Ireland. And the associated genealogies have been
re-written over time. One interesting facet of Fordun's History is his tale of
Simon Bret (breach) bringing the Lia Fail to Ireland from Spain. This episode
has been completely written out of the Irish versions.

But a similar pedigree more in line with Irish sources appears in the
Shenchus Fer nAlban, a tenth century compilation.

Genelaig Albanensium
(Pedigree of the Kings of Scotland)

Causantin
mc culiuin
mc ilduib
mc ehausantin
mc aeda mc chinaeda
mc alpin m echach
mc aeda fhind
mc echach
mc domangairt
mc domnaill bricc
mc echach buide
mc aedain
mc gabrain
mc domangairt
mc fhergusa
mc eirc
mc Eochach Munremair mc Oengusa
mc fhergusa ulaig
mc fhiachach
mc thathmail
mc fhedlimid lamdoit
mc chingi
mc guaire
mc chindtai
mc chorpri rigfhotai
mc chonaire choem
mc moga lama
mc chorpri chrom chind
mc daire dorndmair
mc chorpri fhind moir
mc chonaire moir
mc etersceoil
mc eogain
mc ailella
mc iairm
mc dedad
mc shin m roshin
mc thrir
mc rothrir
mc airndil
mc mane
mc fhorgo
mc fheradaig
mc ailella eraind
mc fhiachach fhir mara
mc oengusa thurbig
mc themrach

This pedigree ties into the same line as the Ui Neill but much further back
in the family tree. Notice the names Conaire Mor and Daire - according to O
Rahilly, Daire was the ancestral god of the Dal Riata or Erain - from whence
the Darini of Ptolemy are named.

As I mentioned previously, this pedigree of the Dal Riata has been
corrupted several times by later writers. Keating includes a variant in his history
of Ireland that makes Fergus Mor son of Erc a brother of the Irish High
KIng, Muirchertach Mac Earca. How did this happen? Probably because of
confusion over the name Erc. In the case of Muirchertach, Earca is said to be his
mother's name.

I realize this topic might not interest most on this DNA list. But if the
traditional pedigrees are correct at all, then the Irish and Scottish Dal
Riata and the line of Colla Uais are two different population groups, which
should make a difference in terms of DNA analysis. The main problem, as I see
it, is establishing exactly who the Airgialla were. O Rahilly gives us a lot
of information on the Dal Riata, but virtually none on the line of the
Collas. Their true descent is shrouded in mystery. Traditional Irish pedigrees
make them close relatives to the Ui Neill. But I don't know of any historians
who believe the tale of the three Collas is true. O Rahilly thinks they were
vassal tribes of the Ui Neill of Tara - which means they were at the time
living in the midlands of Ireland (prior to the conquest and settlement of the
north). One interesting thing about the recent Trinity College DNA study is
that Airgialla names are conspicuously absent from the list of surnames
associated with the Ui Neill DNA pattern.

And then we have the question of why the Irish scribes gave the MacDonalds
a Colla Uais (Airgialla) pedigree in the first place, given the fact that
DNA analysis has shown them to be Norse in the male line. The Irish scribes
took little or no notice of the Scottish clans in early genealogical
manuscripts. The pedigree in Rawlinson and the Shenchus Fer nAlban for the Kings of
Scotland are the only lines traced in early ms. What changed this situation
was the importation of gallowglass into Ireland in the 14th century and the two
best known groups were the MacSweeneys and MacDonalds. Suddenly pedigrees
for these two families began appearing in Irish ms, in the Books of Ballymote
and Lecan, ca. 1400. An even earlier pedigree for the MacDonalds appears in
the G2 ms, ca. 1345. The infamous ms. of William Skene is dated at 1467,
slightly later than its Irish counterparts Ballymote and Lecan. Presumably this
ms. (the only Scottish pedigree collection) is derived from Irish sources
but there is material in the ms. that does not appear in Irish sources, so the
reverse may be true. Perhaps these pedigrees were first developed in
Scotland and borrowed by Irish scribes.

The MacSweeneys were given an Irish pedigree linking them to the O'Neills
of Ireland. Most historians think this was a faked pedigree, designed to
link them to the Ui Neill families amongst which they settled in Ireland. But
what of the MacDonalds? Why were they given an Airgialla pedigree? They
mainly settled as gallowglass under the O'Neills of Tyrone; although a branch of
them took land in Antrim for themselves independently of the O'Neills.
There were Airgialla tribes in Tryone - the O Flynns of the Ui Tuirtre, for one.
But we also have annal references to the Airgialla coming to the aid of the
Dal Riata in Scotland and a group of Airgialla settled as fighting men under
the Cenel Loarn. Maybe there is something to the "female" line business of
the Airgialla and Somerled as a reason for the Colla Uais pedigree.

I keep hoping one day DNA analysis will straighten out some of these
mysteries of Irish and Scottish history.


John







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