GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-01 > 1137534773


From: "rlivingston1488" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:55:49 -0800
References: <144.54cc698b.30fe093a@aol.com>


John Lochlan wrote, < I find myself quite baffled by posts on this list
which somehow confuse the
line of Colla Uais and the Irish Dal Riata in Scotland.>

I am with you on this John. The earliest genealogies (Rawlinson, circa
1150) present no paternal connection between the Dal Riata and the
descendants of Colla Uais. The Kilbride and Munroe MS that Mark MacDonald
points to as evidence of a link is rather weak. Created at a much later
date (circa 1450 and 1557), the MacDonald genealogy of the Kilbride MS makes
a big jump from "Niallgus mc Maine mc Gofrig [Tossach of the Isles]"
to"Fergus mc Eirc mc Cartain mc Eathach mc Colla Uais", leaving out many
generations in-between. In the same manuscript, all of the other clans,
which supposedly descended from "Fergus Mor mac Eirc" of the Dal Riata,
continue on to "Muirchertach Muinremhar", rather "Cartain mc Eathach". So
the author of this MS is clearly making a distinction between the two lines.
At any rate, I suspect most all of the early parts of these Scottish
clan genealogies are pure fiction. What I do not doubt is the truth of
MacDonald oral traditions that they are descended (whether paternally or
maternally) from Colla Uais and Conn of the Hundred Battles. The tradition
of the bards is simply too strong to be ignored. But this does not
necessarily tie them into what should be referred to as "a Scots modal
cluster", rather than a "Dal Riata Modal". From what I have seen of
MacDonald R1b results in y-search, there are no "major" groupings that could
be defined as a tribe descended from any Clan Colla before it was usurped by
a Nordic element. It seems to be a hodge-podge of assorted R1b's from the
"Scots modal cluster" that were brought under the wing of Clan Donald over
the centuries. If Mark thinks I am wrong about this, I'd like to see a
collection of McDonald DNA results that prove otherwise.
In regards to the Maguire chieftains having DNA results that fit into
the "Scots modal cluster" definition, I have yet to see them published
anywhere, and it sure would be nice to have access to it. Of the eight
Maguires whose results are published in the Irish Cluster Study out of
Trinity Dublin, all of them fit into the Irish Cluster, not the Scots.
Regardless, the Maguires are only one of many families supposed to be
descended from the three collas. Others include Boylan, Brassil, Cahil,
Callaghan, Carbery, Carey, Carroll, Cassidy, Conan, O'Connor, Corrigan,
Cosgrave, Devine, O'Donnell, Donnelly, Duffy, Dwyer, Fogarty, Garvey, Gavin,
Hanlon, Hart, Higgins, Hollgan, Kelly, Kennedy, Keogh, Lane, Larkin, Leahy,
Lynch, MacCabe, MacDaniel, MacKenna, MacMahan, MacManus, Madigan, Madden,
Maguire, Malone, Mitchell, Mooney, Muldoon, Norton, Orr, Traynor, Tully,
etc. I'm not seeing a lot of these names pop up as cousins to the "Scots
modal cluster", as they should if we share a common ancestor who lived in
the 3rd century.
I want to emphasize that I use the term "Scots modal cluster" using
lower case letters to signal that it cannot yet be proven to be Scottish or
Dal Riatic in origin, though it certainly appears likely. It could just as
likely be Pictish or some other ancient native population.

Rob

This thread: