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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 02:18:14 EST



In a message dated 1/17/2006 3:53:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

Created at a much later
date (circa 1450 and 1557), the MacDonald genealogy of the Kilbride MS makes

a big jump from "Niallgus mc Maine mc Gofrig [Tossach of the Isles]"
to"Fergus mc Eirc mc Cartain mc Eathach mc Colla Uais", leaving out many
generations in-between.


I see where this came from now. Thanks for posting that. Rawlinson B.502
has the following under this heading:

DE GENELOGIA CENÍUIL MEIC CÁRTHIND.

¶841] Colmán mc Éogain m. Forgco m. Meic Cárthind m. Eircc m. Conlae Óiss m.
Echdach
Dampliúin m. Cairpri Liphechair.

Forgco here is Fergus.

But the string of names in the Killbride ms. is corrupt, perhaps purposely
so, if the author thought that Fergus (Forgco) was the Fergus Mor who
settled in Scotland and his father's name was Eirc. This wouldn't surprise me a
bit since the line of the Kings of Dal Riata in Rawlinson is oddly truncated at
the name Echach Muinremuir in para. 1697 which I quoted previously. But now
(I guess I'm blind) I see the full pedigree in para. 1696.

GENELACH RÍG N-ALBAN.
¶1696] Máel Coluim macc Cináeda m. Máel Coluim m. Domnaill m. Causantín m.
Cináeda m. Alpín m. Echdach m. Áeda Find m. Domongairt m. Domnaill Bricc m.
Echach Buidi{facsimile page & column 162d} m. Áedáin m. Gabráin m.
Domongairt m.
Fergusa m. h-Eircc m. Echdach Muinremuir m. Óengusa Fir m. Feideilmid m.
Óengusa
m. Feideilmid m. Cormaicc m. Croithluithe m. Find Féicce m. Achir m. Echdach
m.
Fiachach m. Feidelmid m. Cincce m. Guaire m. Cintae m. Coirpri Rigfhota m.
Conaire
Cáem
p.329
m. Lugdach m. Cairpri Chrommchinn m. Dáire Dornmáir m. Cairpre m. Conaire
Móir m.
Eterscéla m. Éogain m. Ailella Áin m. h-Éir m. Dedad m. Sin m. Roshin m.
Triir m.
Rothriir m. Airnnil m. Maine m. Forggo m. Feradaig m. Ailella Érann m.
Fiachach Fir
Mara m. Óengusa Turbich Temra m. Echach Altlethain m. Fir Cetharraid m. Fir
Raith m.
Fir Anaraith m. Fir Almaich m. Láebchuire m. Ailella Casfiaclaich m. Conlaíd
m. h-
Irero m. Meilge m. Cobthaich m. Úgaine Máir m. Echach Buadaig m. Duach
Ladcrai &rl.
{facsimile page & column 162e}


This "big jump" referred to in the Killbride ms. is also to be found in
the ms. 1467.

Genealogy of Clan Donald [MacDonalds]

Genelach clann Domnaill anso.-Eoin mc Alx mc Domnaill mc Eoin mc Aengusa oig
mc
Aengus moir mc Domnaill mc Ragnaill mc Somairle mc Gillebridgde [na uamh] mc
Gilleeagamain mc Solaim mc Meargad mc Suibne mc Niallgusa mc Maine mc Gofrig
[Tossach of the Isles] mc Fergusa mc Eirc mc Cartain mc Eathach fieghlioch
mc Collad
uais mc Eathach doimlein mc Ciapre liffechar mc Cormac Uilfata mc Airt
ainfir fauleha
mc Cuin cead feaig.

Sellar even referred to this big jump in the genealogy of MacDonald as a
pointer genealogy to the northern Ui Meic Uais of Ireland. It could probably
be traced out a little futher but I'm not seeing the exact string of names in
Rawlinson right now. It never occurred to me that someone would confuse
this Fergus mc Eirc for the Fergus mc Erc of the Dal Riata who settled in
Scotland but that is apparently exactly what happened.

Or is there something weirder afoot in this passage?

Did some scribe come across the names Fergus and Erc in passages on the
northern Ui Meic Uais in Ireland and mistakenly believe they referred to Fergus
Mor of the Irish Dal Riata? And was he therefore saying in concocting this
pedigree that the MacDonalds were simply part of the Irish Dal Riata?

Something similar is found in an old history of the MacNeills of Scotland.



MacNeill of Barra
Buchanan of Auchmar (1723)
"This surname of M'Neil being one of the most ancient of our Scottish Clans,
is originally descended from that once potent and flourishing Surname of the
Oneils of Ireland. These Oneils were divided into Two great Tribes, the One
termed the Northern and the other the Southern Oneils. The first of these for
a great many Ages, untill the English Conquest, were Provincial Kings of
North Ulster."
Buchanan no doubt by Oneills here means the tribe name Ui Neill and not the
surname O'Neill.
"The McNeils of Scotland, a branch of those of Ireland, are reported to have
come here with the first Scots, who from Ireland planted Argyle-Shire, and
the Western Isles, being for some Ages by past divided into to considerable
Families, these of Barra and Taynish...."
Now he says they were among the first Scots, ie, Dal Riata. He is therefo
re linking the Dal Riata (improperly) to the Ui Neill of Ireland.
I dont know if I can quote this exactly from memory or not but the head of
the MacNeill clan in 1763 wrote a clan history for the Scots Magazine. In the
article he referred to a Muirdoch grandson of Nial as his ancestor. A
little investigation discovered that what he was referring to was the variant of
the Fergus Mor legend in Keating's History that made him a brother of
Muirchertach Mac Earca. He was quoting this legend of the founding of the Scottish
Dal Riata claiming an Ui Neill descent based on the error in Keating's
History.
And this is probably how all this Ui Neill and Nial of the Nine Hostages
stuff originally got started in Scotland. It was a mistake, based on Keating's
History, that appeared to make Fergus Mor, Angus and Loarn descended from the
Irish Ui Neill. The mistake was probably copied by some popular Scottish
historian and from there passed into popular tradition.
John






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