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From: "South" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata: The Nature Clan DNA
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:39:37 +1100
References: <1ee.4a4d229a.30ff45b6@aol.com>


Hello All.

John, well thought arguments, and ones that if following the nature of
lineal paternal succession are indeed sound.

But it is my contention that the old genealogies, 'sloinneadh' are not
entirely records of paternal descent but also include the recorded
'succession of line', to the honours of chiefship or cadet houses thereof.

The tradition is that mac, mhic, vic and ic', have been used in the Gaelic
genealogies to convey 'son of'. But as we know several forms of ritual
fosterage and adoption were practiced within the ancient tribes and clans
and this included the succession of an appropiate incoming chief in right of
his lady heiress wife.

In this sense the incoming chief became representor of the successive line
of chiefs and their adoptive heir, via ritual inauguration, where the
patriarchal blessing-authorisation is transmitted and embodied.
This practice is seen where the husband takes the clan/tribal name in right
of his wifes house.

In a genealogy suitable to recitation, the 'son of' nominal as a convention,
is the most pragmatic form and describes a true line of succession within a
family group.

I believe we have a good example in the Macdonald genealogy, where the line
of the old Gaelic Chiefs is seen to flow into the line of the incoming Gall
Gael Chiefs.

It is without doubt that the surrounding Hebridean clans saw Somerled [R1a]
in right of his ancient royal Gaelic succession, as heir of line, [rather
than heir male of the body], which allowed him to rally the hebridean clans
against their Norse overlords.

Now- the discovery of Somerled's haplogroup is not so surprising to those
who know the armorial bearings of the Macdonald chiefs, where is recorded
the Royal Galley of the Isles- itself the totemic ensign of the Norse
Sea-Kings.

We now know via surname testing that the Irish clans also share within their
degrees of kinship diverse paternal origins.

As such DNA evidence is now before us, I believe the spirit of the pragmatic
model given above may indeed be applied to their own respective histories
upon research.

In terms of the actual nature of inheritance within the clans. We now know
that the sheer bulk of our DNA is maternal in origin, the various diverse
paternal lines within these clans, are supportive conveying the inheritence
of autosomal DNA from their mothers in a successive line from the clan elite
via further local intermarriage. In this sense the Y-DNA being only one
component in inheritance is a vehicle or conduit within the greater family
inheritance of a regional group.

These paternal lines are inter-woven within the very fabric of the clan via
maternal 'succession of the line', and such descent within cognate cadet
branches who re-claimed the tribal designation of the original Name-Father,
being the designation of the clan familia. Dropping in time their own
paternal patronymic when last names were taken to mean the name of ones
family/familia.

These of course are tribal names [Irish and Scots] and not as we view
contemporary surnames being so called sire-names.

The adoption of Gaelic tribal names is further supported historically by
the recorded inter-marriage within the powerful territorial houses of
Gaeldom and the birth of various cadet branches of both agnate and cognate
descent which are indeed rightfully upheld as true heritable succession.
This practice of re-adoption of tribal names is still seen in Scotland today
where many such Celtic practices have survived in law.

Just my penny's worth.

All the best!
Grant South.












----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata


>
> In a message dated 1/17/2006 3:53:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> Created at a much later
> date (circa 1450 and 1557), the MacDonald genealogy of the Kilbride MS
> makes
>
> a big jump from "Niallgus mc Maine mc Gofrig [Tossach of the Isles]"
> to"Fergus mc Eirc mc Cartain mc Eathach mc Colla Uais", leaving out many
> generations in-between.
>
>
> I see where this came from now. Thanks for posting that. Rawlinson
> B.502
> has the following under this heading:
>
> DE GENELOGIA CENÍUIL MEIC CÁRTHIND.
>
> ¶841] Colmán mc Éogain m. Forgco m. Meic Cárthind m. Eircc m. Conlae Óiss
> m.
> Echdach
> Dampliúin m. Cairpri Liphechair.
>
> Forgco here is Fergus.
>
> But the string of names in the Killbride ms. is corrupt, perhaps
> purposely
> so, if the author thought that Fergus (Forgco) was the Fergus Mor who
> settled in Scotland and his father's name was Eirc. This wouldn't
> surprise me a
> bit since the line of the Kings of Dal Riata in Rawlinson is oddly
> truncated at
> the name Echach Muinremuir in para. 1697 which I quoted previously. But
> now
> (I guess I'm blind) I see the full pedigree in para. 1696.
>
> GENELACH RÍG N-ALBAN.
> ¶1696] Máel Coluim macc Cináeda m. Máel Coluim m. Domnaill m. Causantín
> m.
> Cináeda m. Alpín m. Echdach m. Áeda Find m. Domongairt m. Domnaill Bricc
> m.
> Echach Buidi{facsimile page & column 162d} m. Áedáin m. Gabráin m.
> Domongairt m.
> Fergusa m. h-Eircc m. Echdach Muinremuir m. Óengusa Fir m. Feideilmid m.
> Óengusa
> m. Feideilmid m. Cormaicc m. Croithluithe m. Find Féicce m. Achir m.
> Echdach
> m.
> Fiachach m. Feidelmid m. Cincce m. Guaire m. Cintae m. Coirpri Rigfhota
> m.
> Conaire
> Cáem
> p.329
> m. Lugdach m. Cairpri Chrommchinn m. Dáire Dornmáir m. Cairpre m. Conaire
> Móir m.
> Eterscéla m. Éogain m. Ailella Áin m. h-Éir m. Dedad m. Sin m. Roshin m.
> Triir m.
> Rothriir m. Airnnil m. Maine m. Forggo m. Feradaig m. Ailella Érann m.
> Fiachach Fir
> Mara m. Óengusa Turbich Temra m. Echach Altlethain m. Fir Cetharraid m.
> Fir
> Raith m.
> Fir Anaraith m. Fir Almaich m. Láebchuire m. Ailella Casfiaclaich m.
> Conlaíd
> m. h-
> Irero m. Meilge m. Cobthaich m. Úgaine Máir m. Echach Buadaig m. Duach
> Ladcrai &rl.
> {facsimile page & column 162e}
>
>
> This "big jump" referred to in the Killbride ms. is also to be found in
> the ms. 1467.
>
> Genealogy of Clan Donald [MacDonalds]
>
> Genelach clann Domnaill anso.-Eoin mc Alx mc Domnaill mc Eoin mc Aengusa
> oig
> mc
> Aengus moir mc Domnaill mc Ragnaill mc Somairle mc Gillebridgde [na uamh]
> mc
> Gilleeagamain mc Solaim mc Meargad mc Suibne mc Niallgusa mc Maine mc
> Gofrig
> [Tossach of the Isles] mc Fergusa mc Eirc mc Cartain mc Eathach
> fieghlioch
> mc Collad
> uais mc Eathach doimlein mc Ciapre liffechar mc Cormac Uilfata mc Airt
> ainfir fauleha
> mc Cuin cead feaig.
>
> Sellar even referred to this big jump in the genealogy of MacDonald as a
> pointer genealogy to the northern Ui Meic Uais of Ireland. It could
> probably
> be traced out a little futher but I'm not seeing the exact string of
> names in
> Rawlinson right now. It never occurred to me that someone would confuse
> this Fergus mc Eirc for the Fergus mc Erc of the Dal Riata who settled in
> Scotland but that is apparently exactly what happened.
>
> Or is there something weirder afoot in this passage?
>
> Did some scribe come across the names Fergus and Erc in passages on the
> northern Ui Meic Uais in Ireland and mistakenly believe they referred to
> Fergus
> Mor of the Irish Dal Riata? And was he therefore saying in concocting
> this
> pedigree that the MacDonalds were simply part of the Irish Dal Riata?
>
> Something similar is found in an old history of the MacNeills of
> Scotland.
>
>
>
> MacNeill of Barra
> Buchanan of Auchmar (1723)
> "This surname of M'Neil being one of the most ancient of our Scottish
> Clans,
> is originally descended from that once potent and flourishing Surname of
> the
> Oneils of Ireland. These Oneils were divided into Two great Tribes, the
> One
> termed the Northern and the other the Southern Oneils. The first of these
> for
> a great many Ages, untill the English Conquest, were Provincial Kings of
> North Ulster."
> Buchanan no doubt by Oneills here means the tribe name Ui Neill and not
> the
> surname O'Neill.
> "The McNeils of Scotland, a branch of those of Ireland, are reported to
> have
> come here with the first Scots, who from Ireland planted Argyle-Shire, and
> the Western Isles, being for some Ages by past divided into to
> considerable
> Families, these of Barra and Taynish...."
> Now he says they were among the first Scots, ie, Dal Riata. He is
> therefo
> re linking the Dal Riata (improperly) to the Ui Neill of Ireland.
> I dont know if I can quote this exactly from memory or not but the head
> of
> the MacNeill clan in 1763 wrote a clan history for the Scots Magazine.
> In the
> article he referred to a Muirdoch grandson of Nial as his ancestor. A
> little investigation discovered that what he was referring to was the
> variant of
> the Fergus Mor legend in Keating's History that made him a brother of
> Muirchertach Mac Earca. He was quoting this legend of the founding of
> the Scottish
> Dal Riata claiming an Ui Neill descent based on the error in Keating's
> History.
> And this is probably how all this Ui Neill and Nial of the Nine Hostages
> stuff originally got started in Scotland. It was a mistake, based on
> Keating's
> History, that appeared to make Fergus Mor, Angus and Loarn descended from
> the
> Irish Ui Neill. The mistake was probably copied by some popular Scottish
> historian and from there passed into popular tradition.
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==============================
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