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From: "Daniel Jenkins" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata: The Nature Clan DNA
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 00:58:35 +0000
In-Reply-To: <200601182334.SAA14032@alexander.xo.com>


List ,

This is getting more complex by the moment, and off the top of my head I
believe that trying to relate current numbers to a very old lineages is
going to be very murkey indeed . I have followed the Irish postings and
have done some background number crunching and research . I paid for and
tested my uncle Dan Gallagher and he seems to fit very well into the Irish
modal yet he does not appear in the FTDNA posting as mentioned . He is R1b
and our paper trail is back to 1800 in Derry. It is a given that a Gallagher
is a direct desc. of Niall of the Nine Hostages , via Connall Gulbhin. If I
I understand correctly the haplotype is the following for the Irish modal
and I note 4 are not in the FTDNA group.
19=14,388=12,390=25,391=11,392=14,393=13,434=9,435=11,436=12,437=15,438=112,439=12,3891/389b
=13/16,460=11,,461=10,462=11. FTDNA does not have values for
434,435,461,462. In the values my uncle matches all except he is 12 at 460
instead of 11. I would think he is a very good candidate for the Northwest
Irish Modal yet does not show up. He is WNH3K at Yresearch and I have posted
his values at Irish Heritage as well as Clan Gallagher. I looked at some
of the names that FTDNA mentioned and looked at their numbers at Y Search
and still I find close matches with what they posted and I note Roberta's
McNeil 's , being close. As a note Roberta ,I attended the McNeil, Ryan,
and Shine Family reunion at Athlone this past May with a wonderful but cold
trip down the Shannon through the McNeil heartland to Clonmachoise . Who
determined that the above numbers are actually Ui Neil, seems that they are
being worked backwards and with out the actual Y DNA of Niall, it is one
large guessing game . Since one cannot establish a verified record in
Ireland any older than a name in 1796, in the so called" spinning wheel
census" or as it is properly called The Flax Seed Allotment, I would be
very careful in having a great deal of confidence in all of this. As always
any imput or enlightenment welcome .

Dan Jenkins
A genuine R1a1 of Kent , England and a FBR citizen of Ireland via my
Mahonys, and Swamp Yankee from Scituate , Ma.



>From: Mark MacDonald <>
>Reply-To:
>To:
>Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata: The Nature Clan DNA
>Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:34:54 -0600 (CST)
>
>Grant
>
>Elegantly stated and probably true. The data have shown us that the
>ultimate truth was immensely complex and not capable of being sorted into
>simple paternal boxes. It does not mean that the orally memorised
>genealogies which continued in Cape Breton to current generations were
>invented or false nor tat the poets/genealogists who were the intellectual
>elite in their societies whose cutting toungues were feared by kings and
>whose intellectual training focussed upon complex memorization were
>incompetant or dupes.
>
>If the ONeill were simply bystanders in scottish dalriata,how was it that
>St Columba was politically capable of selecting Aiden McGavern as king of
>this people , was personally eligible to become irish high king and acted
>as chief negotiator at the Synod of Drum Ceatt for the dalriads in their
>relations with the ONeill.Men in high positions in the christian church in
>ths period got that way not only because they were holy or great orators
>but because of their strength in kinship relations. The relationships of
>kinship(pure paternal, pure maternal and zig zag) among the Colla chiefs,
>the ONeill chiefs, the scottish dalriads, irish dalriata and their
>followers and kindreds were entwined and incredibly important in very
>complex interactions.
>
>Grant's verbalisation is one very useful step in avoiding sharp, harsh or
>bright line conclusions drawn more than a millenium later as if we know
>the truth and the ancient stories didn't.
>
>Mark MacDonald
>
>Mark MacDonald
>---- <> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All.
> >
> > John, well thought arguments, and ones that if following the nature of
> > lineal paternal succession are indeed sound.
> >
> > But it is my contention that the old genealogies, 'sloinneadh' are not
> > entirely records of paternal descent but also include the recorded
> > 'succession of line', to the honours of chiefship or cadet houses
>thereof.
> >
> > The tradition is that mac, mhic, vic and ic', have been used in the
>Gaelic
> > genealogies to convey 'son of'. But as we know several forms of ritual
> > fosterage and adoption were practiced within the ancient tribes and
>clans
> > and this included the succession of an appropiate incoming chief in
>right of
> > his lady heiress wife.
> >
> > In this sense the incoming chief became representor of the successive
>line
> > of chiefs and their adoptive heir, via ritual inauguration, where the
> > patriarchal blessing-authorisation is transmitted and embodied.
> > This practice is seen where the husband takes the clan/tribal name in
>right
> > of his wifes house.
> >
> > In a genealogy suitable to recitation, the 'son of' nominal as a
>convention,
> > is the most pragmatic form and describes a true line of succession
>within a
> > family group.
> >
> > I believe we have a good example in the Macdonald genealogy, where the
>line
> > of the old Gaelic Chiefs is seen to flow into the line of the incoming
>Gall
> > Gael Chiefs.
> >
> > It is without doubt that the surrounding Hebridean clans saw Somerled
>[R1a]
> > in right of his ancient royal Gaelic succession, as heir of line,
>[rather
> > than heir male of the body], which allowed him to rally the hebridean
>clans
> > against their Norse overlords.
> >
> > Now- the discovery of Somerled's haplogroup is not so surprising to
>those
> > who know the armorial bearings of the Macdonald chiefs, where is
>recorded
> > the Royal Galley of the Isles- itself the totemic ensign of the Norse
> > Sea-Kings.
> >
> > We now know via surname testing that the Irish clans also share within
>their
> > degrees of kinship diverse paternal origins.
> >
> > As such DNA evidence is now before us, I believe the spirit of the
>pragmatic
> > model given above may indeed be applied to their own respective
>histories
> > upon research.
> >
> > In terms of the actual nature of inheritance within the clans. We now
>know
> > that the sheer bulk of our DNA is maternal in origin, the various
>diverse
> > paternal lines within these clans, are supportive conveying the
>inheritence
> > of autosomal DNA from their mothers in a successive line from the clan
>elite
> > via further local intermarriage. In this sense the Y-DNA being only one
> > component in inheritance is a vehicle or conduit within the greater
>family
> > inheritance of a regional group.
> >
> > These paternal lines are inter-woven within the very fabric of the clan
>via
> > maternal 'succession of the line', and such descent within cognate cadet
> > branches who re-claimed the tribal designation of the original
>Name-Father,
> > being the designation of the clan familia. Dropping in time their own
> > paternal patronymic when last names were taken to mean the name of ones
> > family/familia.
> >
> > These of course are tribal names [Irish and Scots] and not as we view
> > contemporary surnames being so called sire-names.
> >
> > The adoption of Gaelic tribal names is further supported historically
>by
> > the recorded inter-marriage within the powerful territorial houses of
> > Gaeldom and the birth of various cadet branches of both agnate and
>cognate
> > descent which are indeed rightfully upheld as true heritable succession.
> > This practice of re-adoption of tribal names is still seen in Scotland
>today
> > where many such Celtic practices have survived in law.
> >
> > Just my penny's worth.
> >
> > All the best!
> > Grant South.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs. Dalriata
> >
> >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 1/17/2006 3:53:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> > > writes:
> > >
> > > Created at a much later
> > > date (circa 1450 and 1557), the MacDonald genealogy of the Kilbride
>MS
> > > makes
> > >
> > > a big jump from "Niallgus mc Maine mc Gofrig [Tossach of the Isles]"
> > > to"Fergus mc Eirc mc Cartain mc Eathach mc Colla Uais", leaving out
>many
> > > generations in-between.
> > >
> > >
> > > I see where this came from now. Thanks for posting that. Rawlinson
> > > B.502
> > > has the following under this heading:
> > >
> > > DE GENELOGIA CENUIL MEIC CRTHIND.
> > >
> > > 841] Colmn mc ogain m. Forgco m. Meic Crthind m. Eircc m.
>Conlae iss
> > > m.
> > > Echdach
> > > Dampliin m. Cairpri Liphechair.
> > >
> > > Forgco here is Fergus.
> > >
> > > But the string of names in the Killbride ms. is corrupt, perhaps
> > > purposely
> > > so, if the author thought that Fergus (Forgco) was the Fergus Mor who
> > > settled in Scotland and his father's name was Eirc. This wouldn't
> > > surprise me a
> > > bit since the line of the Kings of Dal Riata in Rawlinson is oddly
> > > truncated at
> > > the name Echach Muinremuir in para. 1697 which I quoted previously.
>But
> > > now
> > > (I guess I'm blind) I see the full pedigree in para. 1696.
> > >
> > > GENELACH RG N-ALBAN.
> > > 1696] Mel Coluim macc Cineda m. Mel Coluim m. Domnaill m.
>Causantn
> > > m.
> > > Cineda m. Alpn m. Echdach m. eda Find m. Domongairt m. Domnaill
>Bricc
> > > m.
> > > Echach Buidi{facsimile page & column 162d} m. edin m. Gabrin m.
> > > Domongairt m.
> > > Fergusa m. h-Eircc m. Echdach Muinremuir m. engusa Fir m.
>Feideilmid m.
> > > engusa
> > > m. Feideilmid m. Cormaicc m. Croithluithe m. Find Ficce m. Achir m.
> > > Echdach
> > > m.
> > > Fiachach m. Feidelmid m. Cincce m. Guaire m. Cintae m. Coirpri
>Rigfhota
> > > m.
> > > Conaire
> > > Cem
> > > p.329
> > > m. Lugdach m. Cairpri Chrommchinn m. Dire Dornmir m. Cairpre m.
>Conaire
> > > Mir m.
> > > Eterscla m. ogain m. Ailella in m. h-ir m. Dedad m. Sin m.
>Roshin m.
> > > Triir m.
> > > Rothriir m. Airnnil m. Maine m. Forggo m. Feradaig m. Ailella rann
>m.
> > > Fiachach Fir
> > > Mara m. engusa Turbich Temra m. Echach Altlethain m. Fir Cetharraid
>m.
> > > Fir
> > > Raith m.
> > > Fir Anaraith m. Fir Almaich m. Lebchuire m. Ailella Casfiaclaich m.
> > > Conlad
> > > m. h-
> > > Irero m. Meilge m. Cobthaich m. gaine Mir m. Echach Buadaig m.
>Duach
> > > Ladcrai &rl.
> > > {facsimile page & column 162e}
> > >
> > >
> > > This "big jump" referred to in the Killbride ms. is also to be found
>in
> > > the ms. 1467.
> > >
> > > Genealogy of Clan Donald [MacDonalds]
> > >
> > > Genelach clann Domnaill anso.-Eoin mc Alx mc Domnaill mc Eoin mc
>Aengusa
> > > oig
> > > mc
> > > Aengus moir mc Domnaill mc Ragnaill mc Somairle mc Gillebridgde [na
>uamh]
> > > mc
> > > Gilleeagamain mc Solaim mc Meargad mc Suibne mc Niallgusa mc Maine mc
> > > Gofrig
> > > [Tossach of the Isles] mc Fergusa mc Eirc mc Cartain mc Eathach
> > > fieghlioch
> > > mc Collad
> > > uais mc Eathach doimlein mc Ciapre liffechar mc Cormac Uilfata mc
>Airt
> > > ainfir fauleha
> > > mc Cuin cead feaig.
> > >
> > > Sellar even referred to this big jump in the genealogy of MacDonald
>as a
> > > pointer genealogy to the northern Ui Meic Uais of Ireland. It could
> > > probably
> > > be traced out a little futher but I'm not seeing the exact string of
> > > names in
> > > Rawlinson right now. It never occurred to me that someone would
>confuse
> > > this Fergus mc Eirc for the Fergus mc Erc of the Dal Riata who settled
> in
> > > Scotland but that is apparently exactly what happened.
> > >
> > > Or is there something weirder afoot in this passage?
> > >
> > > Did some scribe come across the names Fergus and Erc in passages on
>the
> > > northern Ui Meic Uais in Ireland and mistakenly believe they referred
>to
> > > Fergus
> > > Mor of the Irish Dal Riata? And was he therefore saying in
>concocting
> > > this
> > > pedigree that the MacDonalds were simply part of the Irish Dal Riata?
> > >
> > > Something similar is found in an old history of the MacNeills of
> > > Scotland.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > MacNeill of Barra
> > > Buchanan of Auchmar (1723)
> > > "This surname of M'Neil being one of the most ancient of our Scottish
> > > Clans,
> > > is originally descended from that once potent and flourishing Surname
>of
> > > the
> > > Oneils of Ireland. These Oneils were divided into Two great Tribes,
>the
> > > One
> > > termed the Northern and the other the Southern Oneils. The first of
>these
> > > for
> > > a great many Ages, untill the English Conquest, were Provincial Kings
>of
> > > North Ulster."
> > > Buchanan no doubt by Oneills here means the tribe name Ui Neill and
>not
> > > the
> > > surname O'Neill.
> > > "The McNeils of Scotland, a branch of those of Ireland, are reported
>to
> > > have
> > > come here with the first Scots, who from Ireland planted Argyle-Shire,
>and
> > > the Western Isles, being for some Ages by past divided into to
> > > considerable
> > > Families, these of Barra and Taynish...."
> > > Now he says they were among the first Scots, ie, Dal Riata. He is
> > > therefo
> > > re linking the Dal Riata (improperly) to the Ui Neill of Ireland.
> > > I dont know if I can quote this exactly from memory or not but the
>head
> > > of
> > > the MacNeill clan in 1763 wrote a clan history for the Scots
>Magazine.
> > > In the
> > > article he referred to a Muirdoch grandson of Nial as his ancestor.
>A
> > > little investigation discovered that what he was referring to was the
> > > variant of
> > > the Fergus Mor legend in Keating's History that made him a brother of
> > > Muirchertach Mac Earca. He was quoting this legend of the founding
>of
> > > the Scottish
> > > Dal Riata claiming an Ui Neill descent based on the error in
>Keating's
> > > History.
> > > And this is probably how all this Ui Neill and Nial of the Nine
>Hostages
> > > stuff originally got started in Scotland. It was a mistake, based on
> > > Keating's
> > > History, that appeared to make Fergus Mor, Angus and Loarn descended
>from
> > > the
> > > Irish Ui Neill. The mistake was probably copied by some popular
>Scottish
> > > historian and from there passed into popular tradition.
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ==============================
> > > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> > > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records.
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
>==============================
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