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From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Scotland DNA Project - Anglo-Saxon & Isles modals
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:58:11 -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060122012055.0208f6c8@mail.psu.edu>


Indeed, the populations found for all the sub-varieties of AngloSaxon I1a
(DYS455=8, DYS462 = 12, ....) are quite small compared to the whole. The
only very major division of the I1a population is the "Norse versus
AngloSaxon" one. For some time now, when using both Ysearch and SMGF, I
purge my population counts from multiple contributions from the same surname
line. This is especially important for small populations for which the
contributions from one surname bunch can tilt just about any statistic of
the whole one wishes to generate.

Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Hamilton" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Scotland DNA Project - Anglo-Saxon & Isles modals


> Ken is certainly correct that different varieties of I1a have different
> modals at DYS464 and we have him to thank for elucidating these
> differences. However, in generating a modal for I1a as a whole it is not
> just DYS464 that is "a mixture of apples, oranges, and even bananas";
> essentially the same can be said for all marker sites. Nevertheless, a
> listing of the modal for I1a as a whole has some value, but it will have
> considerably less value if some of the numbers given are not in fact the
> predominant ones at some of the sites. As indicated by the results at
> <http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/MsDNA/I1a.html>;, the data is
> quite clear that for I1a as a whole the predominant sequence for
> DYS464a,b,c,d is 12,14,15,16 not 12,14,15,15 (the frequency ratio of the
> two sequences is about 3 to 2). In conjunction with Ken's analysis what
> these results are implying then is that the I1a-AS1 group is a relatively
> small group within I1a as a whole. The 12,14,15,16 predominance over
> 12,14,15,15 is probably somewhat greater than 3 to 2 because the
> frequencies of these sequences were derived from data in Ysearch which has
> a large contingent of Group A Hamiltons
> <http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/HamDNA/GrpA.html>; with the
> 12,14,15,15 sequence.
>
> Gordon Hamilton
>
>>Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:44:16 -0700
>>From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
>>To:
>>Message-ID: <000601c61ecb$72366680$>
>>Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Scotland DNA Project - Anglo-Saxon & Isles modals
>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>> format=flowed;
>> charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>
>>If the haplotype in question looks more like I1a-AS1, then DYS464 =
>>12,14,15,15 is 11 to
>>4 more common than 12,14,15,16. You can't use the modal for all of I1a
>>because that's a mixture of apples, oranges, and even bananas. The Norse
>>and ultra-Norse I1a, for example, is strongly tilted toward 12,14,15,16,
>>so
>>that moves the "modal" for all of I1a but makes the whole haplogroup modal
>>of less value, because the varieties within have different modals. Within
>>the DYS462 I1a there is a much closer mix of 464d = 15 or 16 values as
>>well
>>as other motifs for 464a,b,c,d. But they tend to separate with the
>>various
>>varieties within this more AngloSAxon part of I1a.
>>
>>See www.northwestanalysis.net My spread sheet standard is that of DNA
>>Heritage. That differs from SMGF on some markers, but not H4.
>>
>>Ken
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Hamilton" <>
>>To: <>
>>Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:33 PM
>>Subject: [DNA] Re: Scotland DNA Project - Anglo-Saxon & Isles modals
>>
>>>Katherine:
>>>
>>>There are a couple values in your posted modal I1a-AS DNA profile that
>>>need some comment and, I think, change. Recently, I posted on my web site
>>><http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/MsDNA/I1a.html>; a detailed
>>>analysis of the dispersion in STR values for haplogroup I1a. From that
>>>analysis the modal values for DYS464a,b,c,d are quite clearly
>>>12,14,15,16.
>>>Although the 12,14,15,15 sequence is relatively common, its frequency is
>>>only about two-thirds that of 12,14,15,16.
>>>
>>>On another point, the value you give on your Scotland web page for
>>>GATA-H4
>>>(for both I1a-AS and I1b2a1-Isles) is misleading. Ken Nordtvedt at his
>>>web
>>>site <http://www.northwestanalysis.net/>; defines this marker as Sorenson
>>>(SMGF) defines it, namely as TAGA-H4. As such, it is always one unit
>>>higher than GATA-H4 as FTDNA defines it. Since the data for individuals
>>>on
>>>the Scotland web site comes from FTDNA, the modal value should be defined
>>>in the same way and thus should be 10 rather than 11 (see my analysis web
>>>site). This value of 10 certainly fits better with what is observed for
>>>the individuals listed on your Scotland web site.
>>>
>>> From the data on my web site one can also deduce I1a-AS modal values for
>>>the 5 markers not given by Nordtvedt. You might consider adding these to
>>>your web site.
>>>
>>>Gordon Hamilton
>>>
>>>
>>>>Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:30:40 -0800
>>>>From: "Katherine Hope Borges" <>
>>>>To:
>>>>Message-ID: <>
>>>>Subject: Scotland DNA Project - Anglo-Saxon & Isles modals
>>>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>>>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>>
>>>>Greetings list,
>>>>
>>>>I've updated the Scotland DNA Project's Y-haplogroup I participants with
>>>>the modal haplotype
>>>>values for the Anglo-Saxon and Isles modals from Ken Nordtvedt's site:
>>>>http://www.ourfamilyorigins.com/scotland/dna.htm<http://www.ourfamilyorigins.com/scotland/dna.htm>;
>>>>
>>>>One of the Allison participants is a perfect match on 25 markers to the
>>>>Anglo-Saxon
>>>>modal and one of the Elders is only two off from the Isles modal.
>>>>
>>>>I will update the site with additional modals from Ken's site as more
>>>>clusters become
>>>>apparent.
>>>>
>>>>Many thanks to Ken for:
>>>>http://wwwnorthwestanalysis.net/<http://www.northwestanalysis.net/>;
>>>>and for his help!
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>Katherine
>
>
> ==============================
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>
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