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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1138829561
From: "" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] haplotype haplogroup correlation - observation and question
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 16:32:41 -0500
Gail,
It works in one direction but not the other. If you have the NW Irish modal
haplotype or something very close to it, it is a virtual certainty (but not
absolutely proven, which requries a SNP test) that you belong to haplogroup
R1b1c.
On the other hand, if you know you belong to haplogroup R1b1c, it is NOT
the case that you can expect to show the NW Irish modal haplotype. If you
look at the two haplotypes on the bottom of the NW Irish page you
mentioned, one is the modal haplotype for mainstream R1b1c. The other one
is the modal value for the NW Irish variety, which is a subset of R1b1c.
I'm probably at fault for using the shorthand tag "R1b" to mean R1b1c,
though I tried to explain this higher on the page.
In reality, the NW Irish R1b1c population in the world today probably does
not exceed two or three million people in the estimate of the Trinity
College Dublin researchers. The entire R1b1c population may be around 500
million, but that's just my guess. The NW Irish variety is probably less
than one percent of the total R1b1c population.
In terms of the actual phylogenetic tree and the associated SNPs for each
level, here's how the structure runs:
M343 = R1b
P25 = R1b1
M269 = R1b1c
Other SNPs identify some subgroups below R1b1c.
There is probably a separate SNP or two that can be associated with the NW
Irish variety, but they haven't yet been identified.
Sorry if my page misled you, and I hope the picture is clear now.
David Wilson
Original Message:
-----------------
From: O'Donnell - FTDNA Surname Proj
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:31:31 -0800 (PST)
To:
Subject: [DNA] haplotype haplogroup correlation - observation and question
I am looking at two very interesting sites from Wilson and Kirchner -
(thanks to both of you). Here they are for your reference to this
discussion:
Kirchner: http://www.kerchner.com/haplotypevshaplogroup.htm
quote: "While the definitive test to determine your haplogroup is a SNP
test, many times your haplogroup can be estimated with a reasonable
confidence level based on your haplotype test result data."
Wilson: http://home.earthlink.net/~wilsondna/DYS392=14%20Summary.htm
Haplogroup r1b1c quote: "Single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) tests of
individuals who belong to this group confirm that it lies within Haplogroup
R1b1c*"
scroll to the bottom of the page for the Haplotype chart - "Yellow
shading identifies NWI modal values which differ from mainstream R1b."
From these two sources I observe/conclude that if one has the SNP test
result of r1b1c, then it is expected that the person will also have the
marker results for the NWI. And vice versa.
Has that tested as usually true, that the haplotype correlates to
haplogroup? that is, STR 390(25), STR385b(13), STR392(14), STR448(18),
STR 449(30), STR464b,c(16) STR456(17), STR607(16), and CDYa,b(37,39) =
r1b1c?
What is a reasonable confidence level? A percentage? How is that
calculated? I suppose to have reached a confidence level one would need
results from persons who have had both haplotype and haplogroup tests.
Is this correlation observed in other ethnic groups? Maybe that is an
anthrogenealogy question.
Thanks and regards to all,
Gail
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