Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1138885874

From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] How many Scots are Scots
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:11:14 -0400
References: <000001c627e2$a6524720$4201a8c0@BigMem2>

I am not one for anything other than alphanumeric labels as anything
else is indicative of narrowmindness and subject to be disproved.
If there is a preference for such labels then I think one should be
consistent in the application. Two of the labels Scots and Irish
are modern and directly relate to a recognized area on a modern map.

Frisian is an outdated term and is currently supplanted by Netherlands,
Germany (Northwest in particular) and Denmark. As it can easily be
proven that the application of the ethnic label Frisian is wrong then one
has to pick a more inclusive modern representation of the areas represented
by the 23/11/13/13 combo. The only acceptable modern term to represent
"all" the areas of the 23/11 distribution is R1bSTR22 Germanic. To contine
to use more limited terminology expresses historical and cultural ignorance.

In terms of how many Scots are Scots the answer is and clearly will
be all of them. This is the nationality given to a conglomeration of
people with varying paternal DNA ancestry. How many Scots R1bs
or how many Irish R1bs is another narrowing factor and only is
suggestive of those of the total R1b population that carrying more
distinctive R1b haplotypes that are more concentrated in Scotland
or Ireland. Nothing wrong with that application. The same would
apply with R1bSTR22 Germanic as one can see its meaning in terms of the
hotspots of its more distinctive haplotype.


----- Original Message -----
From: "John McEwan" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 6:23 AM
Subject: RE: [DNA] How many Scots are Scots

> Dear Andrew, Ken and list
> Okay
> You tempted me out of my hole to do something I should have done months
> ago, summarise the phase 3 cluster analysis of Ysearch data that I did
> in September by listed ancestor origin. See
> Percentage figures and total N below. WE =western Europe, EE eastern
> Europe.
> Origin SCT IRE ENG WE EE other unknown N
> R1bSTR19Irish 12 35 3 2 0 2 47 184
> R1bSTR22Frisian 7 4 26 3 0 2 58 117
> R1bSTR47Scots 38 6 8 0 0 3 45 133
> However, while it is pretty obvious what is going on here, you must
> remember the database is biased. The alternative table below summarises
> them as a % of R1b for each region with totals of individuals with R1b
> for each region.
> Origin SCT IRE ENG WE EE Wales unknown
> R1bSTR19Irish 9 20 1 3 0 0 6
> R1bSTR22Frisian 3 2 8 3 0 3 5
> R1bSTR47Scots 21 2 3 1 0 3 4
> N 241 323 401 118 23 33 1359
> What can we take from this?
> 1) circa 20% of Irish origin R1b is R1bSTRIrish (remember the poorest
> probably left Ireland and these would overwhelmingly be the indigenous
> population. Those remaining in Ireland as in Moore et al's study would
> be biased sample relative to the original pre Norman population) :-)
> 2) A substantial fraction of stated Scottish origin R1b is R1bSTRIrish
> as would be expected from the Dal Riata migration.
> 3) R1bSTRIrish only makes up a minor fraction of R1b in other regions
> 4) Approximately 21% of Scottish origin R1b is R1bSTR47Scots
> 5) R1bSTR47Scots makes up only an extremely minor % of Irish origin R1b
> and similar comments apply for other regions.
> 6) R1bSTR22Frisian is at relatively low proportion of R1b for most
> regions but is highest in England (This cluster is also the highest
> proportion of any for English origin R1b)
> Some other comments:
> a) The numbers are very low but R1bSTR24 makes up 35% of Eastern Europe
> origin R1b (n=23) and 29% of Southern Europe origin R1b (n=7).
> b) R1bSTR43 makes up 8% of western Europe R1b (n=118) and 13% of Eastern
> Europe R1b (n=23).
> c) The other defined clusters have no marked regional foci.
> d) Wales is a mystery, not many samples have extended profiles and they
> seem to be in 3-4 clusters which are distinct from other regions.
> Now I would not read too much into these observations but the results do
> support the numerous comments that have been made on the list over the
> last year.
> I will post all the results on the web site in weekend.
> Cheers
> John McEwan
> ==============================
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