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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1139076879


From: Michael Maddi <>
Subject: Re: Verdict "not to be Frisian" try Seubi
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:14:39 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <200602020553.k125rlsS029116@lists5.rootsweb.com>


--- wrote:

>
> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 22:49:13 -0400
> From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
> To:
> Subject: Verdict "not to be Frisian" try Seubi
>
> Of the past several days I have pointed out that
> from
> the way the numbers were looking to me that Frisian
> was a misnomer for R1bSTR22. There were just
> to many other areas outside Frisia. As I was doing
> my analysis I was also carefully studying the
> histories
> of the other hot spots that popped up. There is
> actually
> a common thread that pretty well puts everything
> together
> nicely. I do believe that Frisian is a misnomer but
>
> I will point out that Ken was not too far off.
>
> The Frisians are a Germanic people that are
> classified
> as part of the cultural group called the Ingaevones.
>
> These include the Frisians, Saxons, Jutes and
> Angles.
> Another cultural group of the Germanic people were
> the Irminones. These are later said to be divided
> into
> the Suebi, Alamanni, Hermunduri, Marcomanni, and
> Quadi.
> While their origins are around the Elbe river in
> northwest
> Germany they were mostly on the move. The Seubi are
>
> one tribe in particular that seems to match the key
> dots in
> terms of the 23/11 hotspots. Many Suebi migrated to
>
> southwest Germany in the Stuttgart area adjacent to
> the Alsace
> district of France (23/11 hotspots). Two importamt
> later
> movemnets come out of this tribe that touches on
> other hotsports. There
> were a number of the Seubi that migrated in mass to
> northern Portugal following the collapse of the
> Roman
> empire (other hotspot). Of those that stayed the
> royal house of this
> Swabi district went and conquered Sicily where I
> noted
> in my last post was the greatest ratio of 23/11 to
> 24/11.
>
> Of the other districts that had hot spots (Gotland,
> Sweden;
> Vilnius, Lithuania; Vienna, Austria, etc.) the
> common thread in
> their history is the Teutonic knights. I believe
> that a careful
> study of the makeup of knights in this Order the
> Irminones
> branches dominate. All in all, without getting into
> a
> enormous paper I have personally concluded that the
> 23/11 hotspots are mostly covered by the Irminones
> tribes.
> They are much more inclusive than that which can be
> explained
> by a Frisian or Greater Frisian label.
>
> Best wishes!
>
> Peter
>
> P.S. Ken, don't get too frissed and suebi ;-)
>

Peter,

Your idea about the Swabians' contribution to Sicily's
gene pool is interesting. I'm not sure how big that
contribution is, so I decided to investigate it a
little.

First, I considered the historical evidence as regards
the Swabians in Sicily. Frankly, I'm not sure that
there was much contribution to Sicily from Swabian
yDNA. First of all, the Swabian rule only lasted for
about 60 years, ending in the mid 13th century CE.
Also, I believe that there were not that many Swabians
who actually served as administrators or soldiers on
the ground in Sicily. I found a couple of websites
which mention the role of Germans in Sicily during the
Middle Ages that indicate there may have been more
involvement than I thought. First, this site,
http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art174.htm, reports
that there were Lombard or other German garrisons set
up in Sicily when Frederick II was king. Also, this
site reports "The Teutonic Knights maintained several
Sicilian commanderies well into the 1300s, undisturbed
by subsequent dynasties." Secondly, this site,
http://sicilia.indettaglio.it/eng/comuni/en/piazzaarmerina/piazzaarmerina.html,
provides some history of the Sicilian town of Piazza
Armerina. It states that "During the Middle Ages, it
was conquered by the Normans, in the person of Count
Ruggero of Altavilla, who allowed the installation of
a Lombard colony." This would have been sometime in
the late 11th century CE. I don't know if the Lombards
fit in with an ancestry from the Suebi tribes, but
Lombards certainly played a role in Sicily in the late
Middle Ages.

Next, I looked at the R1b's who are in the Sicily
Project. That includes myself (SNP-tested, M269+,
M160-, awaiting S21 result) and 4 others (non-SNP
tested, predicted as R1b by FTDNA). Of those 5, myself
and another person have the 23/11 value you cite
above. Then I looked for matches at YHRD for myself
and the other 23/11. For myself, I had one 10/11 match
- an African-American in the US Midwest! For 8/9
matches + 23/11, I had some interesting ones:
Leipzig and Piazza Armerina (mentioned in the previous
paragraph), off on 385b, a fast marker; Lombardy,
Italy and Sao Paolo, Brazil, off on 392, a slow
marker; and Muenster and Stuttgart, Germany, off on
389-II, a fast marker. The other R1b-23/11 in the
Sicily Project, with a less uncommon haplotype than
mine, had more matches. At the 10/10 match level, he
had two: from Ireland and Argentina (European). At the
9/10 (23/11+, off on 389-II), he matched with 4 -
Denmark, Central Bohemia, Argentina (European) and USA
(European-American; for 9/10 (23/11+, off on 385b),
one match in London UK. At the 9/9 match level, he had
13 matches - Argentina (European), Azores (Portugal),
Barcelona, Berlin, Central Portugal, Chemnitz
(Germany), Cologne (Germany), Finland, Friesland,
Ireland, Liguria (Italy), Madrid and northern
Portugal. At the 8/9 level (23/11+, off on 385b), he
had 46 matches. Looking at the geography of those,
there are 6 South America (Brazil & Argentina), 9 from
Germany, 6 from Italy (including 2 in Sicily) and 2
from Portugal. Those represent half of the 46 matches.

You can see that between myself and the other person
I'm comparing to the YHRD database, there seems to be
a high percentage of matches from Germany, Iberian
(either directly or Argentina/Brazil) and Italy. This
would seem to be in line with what you outline in your
theory above, although I don't know enough about
German matches above would correspond to possible
Suebi deep ancestry. Also, I don't know about the
specific connection of Lombards, as discussed in the
historical section I wrote above. But your theory
still seems plausible, at least to me, in light of
what I've written above.

Mike Maddi
Co-administrator of the Sicily Project at FTDNA

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