Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1139146077

From: "Exec" <>
Subject: Re: R1b Analysis, EA, etc, was [DNA] "Hotspots"?
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:27:57 +0100
References: <000401c62a03$a367dfc0$84139a8e@PeterAKincaid>

My support for Ken Nordtvedt is that in Europe, DYS390=23 peaks in Ken's
"Greater Frisia".

I published my data about a year ago: The complete data is available on
Terry Barton's World Families Network at

In summary, I looked at DYS390 for the whole of Europe having acquired the
data from YHRD. My research suggested there are four different
sub-populations of R1b in Europe. I called them Atlantic; Alpine/South
German, NorthSea/Baltic and Baltic/Russsian.

In the light of EA's new research, it is tempting to suggest that Atlantic=
S21- ; Alpine/South German = S28+ ; and NorthSea/Baltic = S21+ ; I would
not bet against EA finding a new SNP for the Eastern Baltic/Russian area.

My NorthSea/Baltic area has Friesland at its epicentre. It is roughly akin
to Ken Nordvedt's Greater Frisia and it includes Netherlands, Lower Saxony
and Baltic Germany, Denmark and Norway. This is what i discovered:

(i)The NorthSea/Baltic area had 1,227 haplotypes of R1b: 38.1% of them had

(ii)The Baltic/Russian area had only a small sample of 159 R1b haplotypes:
32.1% of them with DYS390=23.

(iii)The Alpine/South German area had 1,296 R1b haplotypes: 30.1% with

(iv) The Atlantic area had 1,516 R1b haplotypes: only 17.8% with DYS390=23

Diversity of markers is usually taken as a sign of age, with the more
diverse having mutated for a longer periods than the less diverse. I
calculated the diversity of DYS390 for the range DYS390=25,24,23, and 22.
DYS390=26, and 21 were ignored as being statistically neglible.

Diversity of DYS390 peaks in the Baltic/Russian area at 68.6%; in the
NorthSea/Baltic area it was found to be 61.5%; in the Alpine/SouthGerman
area it was found to be 55.7% and in the Atlantic (Iberia,France, Ireland,
Scotland) area it was found to be the lowest of all, at 46.1%. On the basis
of diversity, Baltic R1s are clearly much 'older' than the Atlantic
version. Also the symmetry of the R1b diversity suggests that its European
origin was on the Volga River, in Russia, at about 55%North and 50% east,
having arrived there from Asian Khazakstan where there is an even higher

In my opinion, the data also supports a conclusion that there were two
primary expansions/migrations of R1b from the Russian, European homeland
(i) northwards to the Baltic and then westwards to the NorthSea/Baltic area,
and (ii) from the Black Sea, along the Danube to the Alpine region, and
westwards, some along the Rhine to the North Sea and others into France and
A further conclusion is that only the Atlantic R1bs could have wintered in
the ice age in Iberia. I suspect the Alpine/SouthGermans were in the
southern ( or south of the) Alps. The Baltic variants were elsewhere,
further north or east. One day, we will know where.

Alan Foster.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 4:24 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] "Hotspots"?

>... You and Alan Foster stated that the Frisia area
> comes out on top. >

If you want to continue to press > the Frisian angle I suggest that you
show us all the numbers you used to
> reach your R1bSTR22 Frisian conclusion.
> Peter

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