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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1139168115


From: "Joe Fox" <>
Subject: Re: R1b Analysis, EA, etc, was [DNA] "Hotspots"?
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:37:43 -0800
References: <00ab01c62a57$fa992660$e6678456@d6e4z6>


Alan, Peter and John

You also need to consider the null439 group
http://www.geocities.com/null439/Results.htm. We have only one S26+ result
(mine) but that ties in with my S21+ result. There are over 50 of these
null439 (i.e. S26+) results that are 24 at DYS390, 6 that are 25 and only
three that are 23. There is thus a considerable group of presumably S21+
men who are not DYS390 = 23.

I don't deny the possible North Sea/Baltic connection. In fact, the Null439
modal (JHPBK in ysearch) is only a GD of 7 in 48 markers from the North Sea
Modal (2B9H5 in ysearch.)

Joe Fox
Lafayette, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Exec" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: R1b Analysis, EA, etc, was [DNA] "Hotspots"?


> Peter,
> My support for Ken Nordtvedt is that in Europe, DYS390=23 peaks in Ken's
> "Greater Frisia".
>
> I published my data about a year ago: The complete data is available on
> Terry Barton's World Families Network at
> http://www.worldfamilies.net/y-haplogroups.htm
>
> In summary, I looked at DYS390 for the whole of Europe having acquired the
> data from YHRD. My research suggested there are four different
> sub-populations of R1b in Europe. I called them Atlantic; Alpine/South
> German, NorthSea/Baltic and Baltic/Russsian.
>
> In the light of EA's new research, it is tempting to suggest that
Atlantic=
> S21- ; Alpine/South German = S28+ ; and NorthSea/Baltic = S21+ ; I would
> not bet against EA finding a new SNP for the Eastern Baltic/Russian area.
>
> My NorthSea/Baltic area has Friesland at its epicentre. It is roughly akin
> to Ken Nordvedt's Greater Frisia and it includes Netherlands, Lower Saxony
> and Baltic Germany, Denmark and Norway. This is what i discovered:
>
> (i)The NorthSea/Baltic area had 1,227 haplotypes of R1b: 38.1% of them
had
> DYS390=23.
>
> (ii)The Baltic/Russian area had only a small sample of 159 R1b haplotypes:
> 32.1% of them with DYS390=23.
>
> (iii)The Alpine/South German area had 1,296 R1b haplotypes: 30.1% with
> DYS390=23.
>
> (iv) The Atlantic area had 1,516 R1b haplotypes: only 17.8% with DYS390=23
>
> Diversity of markers is usually taken as a sign of age, with the more
> diverse having mutated for a longer periods than the less diverse. I
> calculated the diversity of DYS390 for the range DYS390=25,24,23, and 22.
> DYS390=26, and 21 were ignored as being statistically neglible.
>
> Diversity of DYS390 peaks in the Baltic/Russian area at 68.6%; in the
> NorthSea/Baltic area it was found to be 61.5%; in the Alpine/SouthGerman
> area it was found to be 55.7% and in the Atlantic (Iberia,France, Ireland,
> Scotland) area it was found to be the lowest of all, at 46.1%. On the
basis
> of diversity, Baltic R1s are clearly much 'older' than the Atlantic
> version. Also the symmetry of the R1b diversity suggests that its
European
> origin was on the Volga River, in Russia, at about 55%North and 50% east,
> having arrived there from Asian Khazakstan where there is an even higher
> diversity.
>
> In my opinion, the data also supports a conclusion that there were two
> primary expansions/migrations of R1b from the Russian, European homeland
> (i) northwards to the Baltic and then westwards to the NorthSea/Baltic
area,
> and (ii) from the Black Sea, along the Danube to the Alpine region, and
> westwards, some along the Rhine to the North Sea and others into France
and
> Iberia.
> A further conclusion is that only the Atlantic R1bs could have wintered in
> the ice age in Iberia. I suspect the Alpine/SouthGermans were in the
> southern ( or south of the) Alps. The Baltic variants were elsewhere,
> further north or east. One day, we will know where.
>
> Alan Foster.
> =========
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 4:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] "Hotspots"?
>
>
> >... You and Alan Foster stated that the Frisia area
> > comes out on top. >
>
> If you want to continue to press > the Frisian angle I suggest that you
> show us all the numbers you used to
> > reach your R1bSTR22 Frisian conclusion.
> >
> > Peter
> >
>
> ______________________________

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