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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1139437499


From: "Mark MacDonald" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Colla vs Dalriata
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 16:38:26 -0600
In-Reply-To: <19b.4518d423.311bb3bb@aol.com>


Andrew, I'm genuinely surprised that you are reaching these general negative
conclusions about the genetic results. Of course you see the same genetic
signatures in Ulster and the highlands both Trinity's ONeill signature and
my "Colla" signature which you prefer to call DalRiata.

I've been doing some further irish historical research in response to some
of my off line exchanges with John Lochlan and several other persons focused
on irish history. I've also been reviewing the ancient beginnings asserted
by several highland clans in preparation for writing the text for a Clan
Donald genetic/historical site bringing some of our historical and genetic
conclusions into a single integrated discussion which reflects and comments
upon at least some of these historical conundrums. I need one key irish
piece for a series of related hypotheses which would fit together key
irish families with the Scottish 13 24 14 10 found throughout dalriadic
Scotland.

Lochlan, your cynicism is boundless , always looking for fabrications.
There is a core of truth in the old stories and lineages. We just need to
be openminded in light of the genetics for what they can tell us. Just one
example. As I've told you, I still can't find any genetic signatures of
Belgae in Ireland. You can genetically look for them all you want. If there
is such a signature, what is it?

I agree that all lines attributed to the sons of Mil aren't of common
paternal lines; that is beating a straw man or dead horse. To jump from
that agreed point to make anything else an O'Neill "fabrication" is way too
harsh.

We don't yet have a concrete hypothesis in Ireland that simply explains the
available data. Give me some time to think and write before we go hunting
for ancient underlying populations.

Mark MacDonald

-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 2:51 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs Dalriata


In a message dated 2/8/2006 2:04:20 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

Put simply, the DNA is not doing what it was expected to do. It is not yet
showing a strong link between the old families of Argyll and Northern
Ireland, and indeed Argyll and Ulster may be as different from each other
as
any two regions in the British Isles.



Andrew, I don't think this would surprise anyone who's read O Rahilly's
"Early Irish History and Mythology." In it he discusses the waves of
Celtic
tribes who invaded Ireland, based on remnants of authentic tribal lore
preserved
in the ancient pedigrees and mythology of Ireland. Succeeding waves of
small
Celtic tribes came to Ireland from Britain and Gaul and these can be
identified fairly well in historical sources. Yet throughout all these
various waves
of conquest and settlement there must have been an indigenous population
that never disappeared and was simply incorporated into the new ruling
chiefdoms. I think those studies showing links between the Irish in the
west of
Ireland and the Basques illustrates the phenomenon.
On a macro scale, that's exactly what happened in the Irish pedigrees
linking every tribe in Ireland to the Sons of Mil. The diverse Celtic
tribes
such as the Erainn, Belgae, Lagin, and Cruithin were all said to descend
from
one of the sons of Mil. I wouldn't in the least be surprised to find (in
the
case of the Ui Neill, for example) that after their conquest of the North
unrelated tribes in the territories they conquered were simply "adopted"
into
the clan structure by fabricated pedigrees. The same thing might have
occurred
in Argyll after the "invasion" of the Dal Riata. The bulk of the native
population might have remained the same despite the influx of new
chieftains.
Most writers, based on Ptolemy's map of Scotland, place the Epidii in
Argyll
prior to the Dal Riatic invasion. But there were other tribes mentioned in
the
vicinity as well and no one seems to know exactly who they were or what
their ancestry was as a population group. To label them all Picts or
Cruithin
might be too simplistic.

In the case of the Three Collas, O Rahilly made no attempt to link them
to
a specific population group in Ireland. Instead he just described them as
mercerneries to the Ui Neill of Tara and stated their common descent was a
fiction.

What's that old saying about history being written by the conquerors? It

probably doesn't tell us much that is reliable about the conquered
themselves.

John




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