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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1139470086


From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs Dalriata
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 02:28:06 EST



In a message dated 2/8/2006 5:59:11 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

First, let me say that I have few doubts that the Scots Modal group is
anybody other than the Dal Riata. That said, if pushed to explore other
tribes, I think it is reasonalbe to look at the Cruithne (often refered to
as Picts) and their supposed cousins, the Dal Araidhe of Northeastern
Ireland.


Broadly speaking, all the supposed descendants of Ir (nephew of Mil) were
Cruithin (per O Rahilly). This includes a lot of Irish tribes in addition to
the Dal nAraide, but perhaps most notably several clans in the southwest of
Ireland, O Lochlan of Burren and O Connor Kerry. I used to think this was
impossible, but if, as O Rahilly states, the Cruithin were the first Celtic
invaders of Ireland to whom a name can be assigned, they would once have been
the dominant population group of the entire island. Isolated pockets of them
holding small territories could have survived anywhere in Ireland.

I have some questions myself.

Is the Scots Modal group the same thing as the Colla Uais group promoted
by the MacDonalds?

If the Scots Modal group is Dal Riata, I presume this implies they were
Erainn or Belgae, as O Rahilly states. According to their own invasion legend,
the ancestor of the Erainn (Lugaid son of Daire) led them to Ireland from
Britain. The Belgae themselves are found in Britain and Gaul. At one time in
Irish history they too were the dominant population group in Ireland (having
arrived and settled amongst the Cruithin). If this is true then you should
find connections with not only other Erainn or Belgae groups in Ireland but
some in Britain and Gaul as well.

But of course the MacDonalds insist that the Dal Riata were descended from
Colla Uais, from whom descend the Airgialla of Ireland. These are not
Erainn or Belgae at all, as far as anyone knows, but supposedly kin to the Ui
Neill of Ireland. Yet DNA evidence is showing no links between the modern
representatives of the Airgialla in Ireland, the Maguires and MacMahons with the Ui
Neill. If this link with the Ui Neill is a fake, then what are we left
with? Not much, in my opinion. No one, not even O Rahilly, ventured a guess as
to what population group the Airgialla belonged to.

I personally continue to be baffled by the utter disappearance of the
Picts in Scottish history. Where did they all go? Adomnan in his life of
Columcille mentions them in the 8th century and we are told Kenneth MacAlpin united
the two kingdoms by marriage a century later. After that, total silence.
And by the 15th century (Skene's ms. 1467) not a single Scottish clan is said
to descend from the Picts - all are Dal Riata with a few admittedly Norse
clans and several with "Irish" pedigrees such as the MacDonalds and Anradan
kindred (and the Stewarts, I might add).

I doubt the Picts just conveniently disappeared. They probably lingered
on, in time losing their own language and social identity and simply merged
with the newcomers, the Dal Riata from Ireland. And just as in Ireland they in
time were probably given official pedigrees linking them to the current
chieftains.

I recently read a book by a Scottish historian bemoaning the fact that
what O Rahilly achieved in Ireland could not be duplicated in Scotland due to a
lack of source records. No doubt he was mostly referring to the huge
collection of pedigrees in Ireland dating from the the 11th to the 15th century,
from Laud 610 (c. 1000 AD) to the Books of Ballymote and Lecan (c. 1400 AD).
The Shenchus Fer nAlban may be even earlier (9th or 10th century) although most
scholars believe parts were written or added much later. There is no
manuscript collection in Scotland that can compare to this and unfortunately for
the Scots, the Irish did not pay any attention to the Scottish clans except for
the line of the Kings of Scotland (Dal Riata) until well into the 14th
century, when pedigrees for the MacSweeneys and MacDonalds suddenly appeared for
the first time in the G2 ms. and the Books of Ballymote and Lecan.

The only pedigree collection preserved in Scotland is Skene's ms. 1467,
very late in comparison and unverifiable in the sense that the pedigrees
contained therein cannot be validated or checked against earlier versions. Most of
the clans described in this ms. are deduced from Ferchar Fada, an historical
character named in the Irish annals, through Loarn the son of Erc. But who
can can really state these pedigrees are "historical" given the complete
absence of any corroborating entries from the nonexistent Scottish annals or other
older versions to compare them to?

So I have some questions on the makeup of the clans of Scotland myself,
centering mainly on the question of the Picts (or really any of the indigenous
tribes named by Ptolemy).

Rob, I thought this was interesting:

"The Cruithne, pronounced "cree-nee" or "croo-nee", are probably the tribes
that Ptolemy called the "Cerones" and/or the "Caereni". In the 2nd century
he places them north and east of the "Epidi" of the Epidium Promitory (the
penninsula of Kintyre). The area to the east of Oban (central Argyll) was
referenced as "the country of the Cruithne", in the 12th century legendary
tale of "The Cattle Raid of Cooley", that is said to have taken place about
500 BC. Adjacent to Oban, is present-day "Glenn Cruittein", "Glen of the
Cruithne". So present-day place names still reflect the identity of the
peoples who used to live there in ancient times."

But what of the other tribes in Scotland and northern Britain referenced
by Ptolemy? Weren't all these supposed to be Picts as well? Or is the term
Pict overly broad as used by most historians? And who were the Epidii? One
book I read considered them a P-Celtic or Brythonic speaking tribe, mainly
because of the "p" in their name. Other writers see in the term the Pretanic
Isles a reference to the Picts. If so this population group must at one time
have been dominant in most of Britain and Scotland, just as O Rahilly tells
us they were in Ireland as the Cruithin.



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