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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1139509616


From: "Mark MacDonald" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Colla vs Dalriata
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:40:17 -0600
In-Reply-To: <008d01c62d0c$164c6280$1802a8c0@WorkGroup>


Pat, Rob, Andrew, John Lochlan and John McEwan

Let's review how we got here and the bases for my original Colla hypothesis.
I then suggest some possible hypotheses or clarifications to the original
hypothesis which could at least partly fit the historic and genetic facts.
This sharpened analysis should be regarded as tentative but it should also
provide a framework for further discussion.

My original Colla hypothesis first asserted in 2004 was based on :
I the genealogy and history of Clan Donald in three volumes by
Reverends Archibald and Angus MacDonald written a century ago which
asserted that a) Clan Donald had records dating back to the 1400s which
asserted that we descended from and we were part of Clan Colla in
Ireland, b) that Godfrey mac Fergus ,Toiseach of the Isles circa 840 AD
,was descended from the royal house of dalriada dating back to the original
sons of Erc who traditionally founded Dalriada and that descent of Fergus
son of Erc came from Conn through Colla Uais.
IIFrom the websites of Livingston (a Lismore based family still
possessing church relics), Campbell, and MacGregor( who traditionally
asserted descent from the line of McAlpin) coupled with Clan Donald's data
base they hadn't seen in which the largest group of MacDonalds were 13 24 14
10, plus Maguire and Norton data to support the irish side of the
connection, I could see the outline signature of what I called Colla
(consistent with my clan's traditions and history) and what McEwan calls
Scot 47.

III At some point, either before or after I announced the signature, the
Taggerts who are traditionally of descent from the priests of Applecross and
the O Beolan Earls of Ross, numerous Stewarts, and Buchanan chief lines,
Forbes of Aberdeen, MacMillans, MacIntoshes, MacKenzies, Urquharts and
Morrisons from Lewis each showed the signature. When you impose the map of
these signatures on the map of the maximum extent of the MacDonald Lordship
of the Isles and add Lorne originally controlled by Dougal, Donald's uncle
plus the Lennox for the Buchanans, the maps are close to identical.
Although I was getting a number of speculations about picts and the
strathclyde, the simple theory looked fine.

We knew that Somerled was paternally norse which took our chiefs out of the
equation and we knew that whether the O Neills were AMH , 13 25 14 11 or
some of the esoteric versions found by Len OCahan's project, that it was
unlikely we could ever confirm or deny Conn's signature if he was in fact a
historic person because we would never reach a consensus on O Neill. The
Maguire project was generating large numbers of 13 25 14 11 as did the
McMahon but we thought that several key chief signatures still pointed
toward the Colla hypothesis.

Then came the Trinity data and the ONeill signature hypothesis. From this
data we further strengthen that some ONeills show 13 24 14 10 supporting the
existence of the "Colla" signature in the O Neill heartland but that the O
Neill should have regarded the Airghialla as equally noble in race per the
8th century poem because there appeared to be a higher percentage of
"O'Neill" paternal lines among the Colla descendants in Ireland than my
"Colla" signature. When I checked the traditional origin story of the
Buchanans, it claims descent from around 1038 from an Anselm O Kane son of
an Ulster king who emigrated to the Lennox within a century before Somerled.
Although the Buchanans now use a more "reasonable" story of ancient descent
in the Lennox, they are as similar to each other at or very near the "Colla"
signature indicating relatively recent genealogical descent as a family. The
O Kanes /OCahans were a senior branch of the ONeil; the O'Neils contain a
number of 13 24 14 10.

Continued in part 2

Mark MacDonald
-----Original Message-----
From: rlivingston1488 [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 6:02 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs Dalriata

Pat asked,

> If this modal
> can't be associated with the Collas or Dal Riada, then what historic
> or prehistoric ethnic/cultural group should we be exploring?

First, let me say that I have few doubts that the Scots Modal group is
anybody other than the Dal Riata. That said, if pushed to explore other
tribes, I think it is reasonalbe to look at the Cruithne (often refered to
as Picts) and their supposed cousins, the Dal Araidhe of Northeastern
Ireland. Both are said to have an ancient common ancestor named "Ir".

From the Annals of the Four Masters, in the year 665 AD,
"Maelcaeich, son of Scannal, chief of the Cruithne of Dal Araidhe (Ireland)
of the race of Ir, died."

The Cruithne, pronounced "cree-nee" or "croo-nee", are probably the tribes
that Ptolemy called the "Cerones" and/or the "Caereni". In the 2nd century
he places them north and east of the "Epidi" of the Epidium Promitory (the
penninsula of Kintyre). The area to the east of Oban (central Argyll) was
referenced as "the country of the Cruithne", in the 12th century legendary
tale of "The Cattle Raid of Cooley", that is said to have taken place about
500 BC. Adjacent to Oban, is present-day "Glenn Cruittein", "Glen of the
Cruithne". So present-day place names still reflect the identity of the
peoples who used to live there in ancient times.

The Dal Araidhe undoubtedly came over to Scotland in considerable numbers as
chuchmen who established monasteries throughout Argyll and points north. In
so doing, they gained footholds as powerful and wealthy hereditary abbots,
just as the O'Niall did with St. Columba and his followers.

Rob


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