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From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Colla vs Dalriata: R1bSTR19 vs R1bSTR47
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 23:25:41 -0400
References: <001201c62d60$664f4820$4201a8c0@BigMem2>


With the Plantations one would expect native Irish populations in Ulster
to be pushed to the west and southwest (ie. poorer land). That R1bSTR19
is more concentrated there does bode well with your thoughts. When you
say R1bSTR47 around Glasgow does this mean within the city limits or
north of the Clyde, or Ayrshire, etc.? In terms of England are there any
hotspots observed. I wonder if the Liverpool area comes out big. Could
relate to Famine immigrants, etc.

Peter


----- Original Message -----
From: "John McEwan" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 6:05 AM
Subject: RE: [DNA] Colla vs Dalriata: R1bSTR19 vs R1bSTR47


> Dear List
>
> For what it is worth here are my views. The data to support them are on
> my website based on Ysearch.
>
> We know that R1bSTR47 cluster (that is commonly called Scots and is
> consistent with what is called Colla) is very frequent in Scotland less
> so in England and is nearly absent in Wales. It also has a 10 fold lower
> frequency in Ireland (2% vs 21% of R1b). An early analysis suggested
> that the group present in England (3%) has more diversity in their
> haplotypes (code for saying they are descended from an earlier ancestor
> then those in Scotland). The current distribution presented in the graph
> on the site which is not fully corrected for biases but suggests Argyll
> is the region of the highest concentration. However, in absolute numbers
> it is lowland Scotland around Glasgow. What impressed me was the major
> differences fall along historical borders: Scotland, England, Wales,
> Ireland. These have been present since at least Roman times so these
> differences most likely were established at or prior to that date.
>
> In the case of R1bSTR19 (aka Irish or IMH), their highest concentration
> is in Ireland (and a North West region of Ireland based on Moore et al).
> However, there is a substantial fraction in Scotland 9% vs 20%, but only
> 1% in England.
>
> Both are low in Wales and these two groups are not really significant in
> Europe (given the inherent limitations of the data).
>
> The Irish group is probably slightly older than the Scots group based on
> STR diversity, but both are quite old when compared to the diversity of
> R1b as a whole.
>
> Now any proposal has to account for the following:
> a) how did the distinctive clusters emerge?
> b) how do we explain their present geographical spread (or lack of), the
> absolute numbers and relative frequencies, and STR diversity?
> c) how consistent are the results with known history and prehistory?
> d) how can we reconcile it with the emerging SNP data?
>
> My working hypothesis is that R1BSTR19 is the signature of a successful
> line of early hunter gathers that colonized Ireland after the LGM. The
> very low number of people at that time meant that a successful male line
> with an unusual haplotype would leave a strong imprint. The fact that
> SRY2627+ are also infrequent in Ireland suggests these people left the
> Iberian refuge early before this variant became common. When agriculture
> was adopted this group, with a limited genetic base, expanded rapidly
> even if other more diverse R1b groups arrived at the same time.
> Subsequent "invasions" all have been from the east and generally
> southeast so this would dilute prevalence in these regions. On this
> basis it is not surprising that it is now at highest concentration in
> the West and North. Regards an estimate of age of the group I will
> simply refer people to its diversity relative to the diversity of R1b
> itself to conclude that it has to be very old and definitely
> pre-agriculture. David Wilson has expressed nearly identical views to
> this previously. This is not to say that there was not also very
> successful lineages within this group subsequently.
>
> Similar comments can be made about the R1bSTR47, but in this case we
> have to account for the larger STR diversity in England. My feeling is
> the group as a whole is younger than R1bSTR19 and was probably displaced
> or largely restricted to Scotland at some stage. It probably emerged at
> or prior to the introduction of agriculture. Its relative absence from
> Wales suggests that perhaps its expansion had something to do with
> agriculture. The most obvious event that created a border with Scotland
> which was maintained subsequently was when the Romans arrived, but the
> restriction on movement may have been present even before that time.
> Relative population expansions and AngloSaxon invasion would have taken
> care of the rest.
>
> Now there are holes in the current geographical data sampling, but I
> feel it is simply not credible to propose R1bSTR47, was a rare Irish
> haplotype that invaded Scotland and thrived in the last 1500 years. This
> does not explain its substantial numerical presence in England (even if
> only it is 3% of R1b there) nor its current observed diversity which is
> highest in England. This population in England CANNOT be explained by
> any immigration from Ireland in the last 1500 years.
>
> We then move to the relatively high frequency of R1bSTR19 (Irish) in
> Scotland. In my opinion this is clearly related to the Dal Riadic
> migration and possibly earlier shifts from Ireland.
>
> Now these groups may only be a distinctive tip of a larger group(s)
> within R1b that we cannot currently separate. We could take the
> frequency of other haplogroups in the various countries to obtain some
> estimate of the true proportion of "indigenous" R1b in England, Scotland
> and Ireland and it could be double the frequency of R1bSTR19 and
> R1bSTR47. This of course assumes the settlers after the LGM were
> overwhelmingly R1b.
>
> The current SNP data and the other semi distinctive R1b STR clusters all
> support this interpretation: R1bSTR19 and R1bSTR47 are distinctive R1b
> subgroups which occupy the same corner of the R1b universe as currently
> defined by SNPs. There very distinctiveness and diversity also give a
> good indication of their age.
>
> Now I do have a few issues and nagging doubts, Wales is one, and it is
> also poorly sampled. Its R1b does, however, seem different and varied. I
> would also love a good set of extended haplotypes of Northern Ireland.
>
> In summary, my working hypothesis is R1bSTR19 and R1bSTR47 are old R1b
> variants that emerged after the LGM in Ireland and Britain respectively
> and these indigenous (as in "Originating where it is found") descendants
> have been restricted to "less desirable" areas by subsequent immigration
> and population expansion in these Islands. The pressure of which in the
> Irish case led some of them to in turn emigrate, settle and mix with the
> other variety in Scotland.
>
> Cheers
>
> John McEwan
>
>
>
>
> ==============================
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