Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1139706817

From: "William A. Sirmon" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Earliest common ancestors for 37/37 and 43/43 matches
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 19:13:37 -0600

I will try to be brief but there are so many questions on this topic. I
feel that our Sirmon Project does address some of them. According to the
census data, the Sirmon surname ranks at 66,000+ so it isn't very common
which reduces the number of unknown lines. We have 32 participants and have
identified two family groups. One we refer to as the Severn Valley group
since all the participants descend from William Surmon (c. 1430) of
Eldersfield, Worcestershire, UK and there are 22 participants (all tested at
37 markers by FTDNA) in this group (R1b). The other group is identified as
the Thames Valley group and they descend from Stephen (1500) and there are 5
participants in this group (I). The other 5 do not fit either of these
families. The data on these families can be found at the web site:

I believe the interest here would be with the Severn Valley family and on
the web site there are both HTML and PDF documents for Results-Lineage,
Results-Part., and a PDF document Mutation Table. The links for these will
be found in the window at the left of the web site. (Results are also
available for the I haplogroup--Thames Valley family.)

A brief summary for the Severn Valley. As noted there are 22 participants
with 37 marker results. The project ancestral haplotype is for John Surmon
(1557) since we have participants from three of his sons. Four participants
are from the UK and 18 from the USA. The USA participants descend from one
of the three sons of John. Two UK participants descend from a second son
and there is another UK descendant from a third son (a 37/37 match). The UK
cousins have done the paper trail work in the UK and the USA cousins have
done the paper trail work in the USA. We were able to combine the families
into a single DNA Project which has allowed us to make the family
connections back to 1430.

The results: (10-14 generations to John)
6 participants are 37/37 matches (from 5 different lines--two different sons
of John)
8 participants are 36/37 matches (most mutations associated with different
4 participants are 35/37 matches
4 participants are 34/37 matches

Of the total of 28 mutations for this family, 16 are found for CDYa, CDYb,
and 464b-d.
Panel 1 Mutations: 5
Panel 2 Mutations: 10 (5 at 464b-d)
Panel 3 Mutations: 13 (5 at CDYa and 5 at CDYb)

The Parallel Mutation question (I assume this to mean the same mutation
occurring in two different lines).
My GGgrandfather, Nathan Sirmon, had three sons with male descendants: Levi,
John, and Daniel. We have two participants with results from each of these
three sons. The two participants from Levi have a 39 at CDYb and the two
participants from Daniel have a 38 at CDYb (which match the ancestral
haplotype). One of the participants from John has a 39 at CDYb and the
other has a 38 at CDYb. I can understand the results for the participants
of Levi and the results for the participants for Daniel but I don't
understand the results for the participants of John (unless we have a
parallel mutation). The mutation for the Levi line would have had to occur
at Levi's son (John) or grandson (James) since the participants are from
different sons of James. There is no mutation for the participants of
Daniel. How did the one participant from John have the same mutation at
CDYb as the two from the son Levi? It doesn't appear to be one of the
paternity events discussed on this list since he has two other mutations not
shared by the participants of Levi. It appears to me that the same mutation
has occurred in two different lines.

As a final comment, I should mention that the Severn Valley family has a
higher rate of mutations than does the Thames Valley family.

Bill Sirmon, Co-administrator
Sirmon DNA Project

Note to Charles Kerchner: I have tried to join your group at Yahoo but am
having trouble reactivating my Yahoo account. I may need to create a new

This thread: