Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1140475847

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] P78 and P95 in I-Haplogroup Tree (old I1c Bush)
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:50:47 -0700
References: <003201c6366c$e893b540$0101a8c0@HighReaches.local>

The more ancestral haplotype which had the S23 SNP mutation, for example,
most likely had 11,11 at 454,455. The descendant who later had the
now-discovered S24 or M223 SNP mutation still had the 11,11 at 454,455.
Your line is simply descendant from someone other than the guy who got the
S24 or M223 SNP mutations. All we know about the lines other than the S24
or M223 guy is that apparently there was no prolific founder among those
lines escept for someone who had the fringe form 12,10 at 454,455. There is
no need for any line to have gone 11,11 to 12,10 and back to 11,11.

The order with which SNPs are discovered at various places in the tree is to
large degree simply accidental or random. The present absence of one on
your final branchline means nothing.

Or visually speaking as far as drawing the tree is concerned; the I1b2a*
p.k.a. bush could have been drawn straight to the right from its predecessor
SNPs like S23 --- in order to emphasize the probable continuity of the
454,455 = 11,11 values; with your I1b2* (x) then jutting up or down as
"side-branch" emphasizing its strange 12,10 at 454,455.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glen Todd" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: [DNA] P78 and P95 in I-Haplogroup Tree (old I1c Bush)

>> Glen, You have defining SNPs for the x cluster, you just
>> aren't satisfied with them!!!!
> No, I'm not.
> We've been over this ground before. I'm looking for a single SNP whose
> derived state will indicate x cluster (which will then acquire a standard
> form designation.) I1b2* x cluster cannot be the same as I1b2 root,
> based
> on several factors, including the existence of the I1b2a tree. For my
> favourite DYS455,454 to mutate to 10,12 for x cluster and then BACK to
> 11,11
> for the I1b2a subtree simply defies probability. This suggests quite
> strongly that x cluster is off on a branch of its own.
> Glen
> ==============================
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