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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] RE: Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish s...
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 21:28:33 EST



In a message dated 3/5/2006 11:11:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

It's hard for me to know what is meant by "...broader diversified lineage"
in this context. In the case of O'Neills, I believe it says first that there
is a predominant haplotype (DYS signature). My analysis shows at least 26 of
the 80 O'Neills had DYS values identical or very close to one another so I
presume this is their "predominant haplotype" for O'Neills. The fact that about
54 of the 80 O'Neills did not have this DYS signature seems in line with the
quote that "None examined showed more than about half of current bearers
still descended from one original founder...".



The Trinity paper listed several reasons for different clusters of people of
the same surname. The first (quoting MacLysaght and Woulfe, the two
surnames experts in Ireland), had to do with the multiple origins of surnames and
the anglicisation process which corrupted Irish surnames into more common
forms. I can vouch for this myself in a number of cases. O Mailsechlainn
(O'Melaghlin) was corrupted into MacLoughlin during the anglicization process. Mac
Giollla Sechlainn (Mac Gillaghlin) was also corrupted into McLaughlin. O
Lachtnane became Lochlan. Any number of such examples can be found especially
in Woulfe (Irish names and Surnames).

The second reason they gave was later male introgression into the surname,
by which I presume they meant non-paternity events, adoptions or perhaps
even surname adoption (although this is not stated). They even refer to this
an "ad hoc rate of generation decay" in surnames. As someone recently
mentioned to me recently this kind of thing can "snowball" rapidly especially over
the course of 1,000 years (since surnames in Ireland began).

So how to explain the differences you're finding in O'Neills in Ireland?

There were several non Ui Neill O'Neill septs in Ireland, primarily in
Leinster and Munster. This would fall under the first category discussed in the
Trinity paper - multiple origins of surnames. And possibly even corrupt
anglicization. MacLysaght tells us the O'Neills of Thomond were actually Nihil
(O Neighill).

You may have already done this in your analysis but I would only use
O'Neills from Ulster.

I don't know of any other surnames in the north of Ireland with multiple
origins or corrupted anglicisations that could have turned into O'Neill
surnames. So that pretty much leaves us with male introgression as an explanation.
I only know of two branches of the O'Neill sept in Ulster, both said to
descend from Aodh an toinleasg an macaomh Ua Neill, or Hugh 'the lazy youth'
O'Neill, d. 1177. From one son, Aodh dubh O'Neill, descend the O'Neills of
Clannaboy. From another son, Neill ruadh Ua Neill, descend the O'Neill
chieftains of Tryone.

If your results are not showing this division in O'Neills in Ulster then I
frankly have no idea what they could be showing unless it was male
introgression of some kind.

The Irish Sections of Fynes Moryson's (1556-1630) Unpublished Itinerary
Graham Kew

"And so the ONeales boldy rushed into the possessions the English had left
voyd in Ulster, and not only the true Oneales, but every bastard warranted
by his mother to call himself Oneale, if he were more bold and bloody than the
rest, did for that time beare themselves for lords of Ulster."

"Tey have likewise a ridiculous Custome, that maryed women give Fathers to
their Children when they are at the point of death. Insomuch as they have a
pleasant tale, that a yonger sonne hearing his mother give base fathers to
some of his brethern, besought hr with teares to give him a good father. But
commonly they give them fathers of the O'Neales, O'Donnells or such great men,
or at lest those that are most famous for licentious boldnes. And these
bastard Children ever after follow these fathers, and thincking themselves to
descend of them, wilbe called swordsmen, and scorning husbandrye, and manuall
Arts live only of rapine and spoyle."

While Fynes Moryson and other English writers of the 17th century had no
great love of the Irish, I think it would be a mistake to reject everything
they had to say about Irish social customs and mores.


John









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