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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-04 > 1145509186


From: "Michael L. Hébert" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Come on, I1a Haplotypes
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:59:46 -0500
In-Reply-To: <000801c66316$a593e040$bec79045@Ken1>


I am a newbie to genetic genealogy and am still on the learning curve. I
recently started a couple of DNA surname projects. For my Woodruff project,
I've gone into the SMGF database and teased out the numbers for the four
Woodruffs in there and was going to add them to my project site as a way of
getting things kick started. Using the Athey predictor site, three of the
SMGF Woodruffs, as well as my Woodruff uncle, seem to be R1b. However, one
of the SMGF Woodruffs is predicted as I1a.

My question is, can and should I add these SMGF numbers to Ysearch to make
them available to other researchers? SMGF's terms
(http://smgf.org/page.jspx?name=legal) don't seem to forbid it since this
would be for an "educational and non-commercial" purpose. Any thoughts on
this would be appreciated.

Anyway, below are the I1a numbers (using FTDNA lab standard) for the SMGF
Woodruff. Does this particular haplotype indicate Norse origin? If so, I
might mention this in my project announcements as a way of perhaps luring
more Woodruffs to get tested.

393 = 13
390 = 22
394/19 = 14
391 = 10
385a = 13
385b = 15
426 = 11
388 = 14
439 = 12
389i = 12
392 = 11
389ii = 28
458 = 12
459a = 8
459b = 10
455 = 8
454 = 11
447 = 24
437 = 16
448 = 20
449 = 30
460 = 10
GATA-H4 = 10
YCAIIa = 19
YCAIIb = 21
456 = 14
442 = 12
438 = 10
461 = 11
462 = 12
GATA-A10 = 13
GATA-C4 = 22
GGAAT-1B07 = 10
441 = 15
444 = 13
445 = 11
446 = 13
452 = 12
463 = 19

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Nordtvedt [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:34 PM
To:
Subject: [DNA] Come on, I1a Haplotypes

I did a rough count of haplotypes entered into Ymatch. I assume these would
be haplotypes which typically have ordered some of DNa-Fingerprints new STRs
or other specialty tests such as Kittler order for DYS385, etc.

The R1b entries outnumber I1a entries 7 to 1! In SMGF (a sampling of the
actual population) the ratio of such haplotypes is only about 3 to 1. So
the R1b folks are taking more advantage of the new information available
from DNA-Fingerprint's products. Maybe the R1b Scots and Irish just have
intrinsically more interest in this whole hobby?

I'm not promoting an inter-haplogroup race here for the sake of a race. But
we can not make much more progress in dividing I1a into more sub-populations
with distinct geography and history without I1a haplotypes being measured
for new attributes. The existing databases have just about been analyzed
down to the noise level, and not much more can be learned from them alone.

The R1b folks presently have a flood of SNPs to explore and use to learn
more about the divisions and geography of R1b haplotypes. But we just do
not have such SNPs for I1a. At the SNP level, once you are identified as
I1a one way or the other (SNPs or DYS455 = 8) there is nothing further to
do; you can with extended haplotypes perhaps learn the odds that your deep
haplotype ancestry was Scandinavian or from south of the North and Baltic
Seas, but there are no handles to learn much about where you fit in this
more southerly but major component of I1a.

It will require accumulating data within I1a from new STR markers and from
doing Kittler order tests for DYS385 in order to learn more about DYS462 =
12 I1a, which is the bulk of it.

I could make a similar case for the (old) I1c and (old) I1b haplotypes, but
I'll save that for another time. I'll just point out that the (old) I1c
haplotypes at least have now a set of subclade SNPs which they should be
exploring --- M284, P78, P95, M379 --- but which they apparently are not in
significant number. Nothing like that with SNPs is presently possible in
I1a.

Anne and Bonnie of this list periodically take your orders and put them into
a group order which obtains a substantial discount from DNA-Fingerprint.

Ken


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