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From: David Faux <>
Subject: R1b1c10 (S28) - Teutonic or Ancient Celt?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:33:27 -0700 (PDT)


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I thought I had everything all sewn together. S28 was initially found in either Eastern England (the Danelaw) or in the Alpine region of Germany as well as Switzerland. I interpreted that latter as reflecting the migration of the Alamanni people from the Baltic to those areas in the opening years AD; and the former as reflecting Danish Viking activities. Well, things have changed.

John Davies book "The Celts" shows a band from Spain and Scotland to Turkey where the Celtic peoples and languages have been documented. It does not include Friesland and Northern Germany or Scandinavia as the Celtic peoples were never there. Davies then has four areas where Hallstadt and LaTane "rich burials" have been found shown as three circular areas in what is today France, Southern Germany and Southern Poland, and a swath in and north of the Alps focusing on Switzerland. Looking at our customer results it is amazing that with only a couple of exceptions, the S28+ have been found within those circumscribed areas described. Considering northern Germanic countries, other than what appear to be a few strays, our research studies have not found S28 in Friesland or west of a line drawn north from the Jutland Penninsula to Norway. We have no data on the Baltic area including Denmark at this point. S28 is rare in Shetland and almost invisible in Orkney. However in
Western Britain, in a very Celtic region with little likelihood of Anglo - Saxon or Viking settlement there is a high percentage of S28+ (and a respectible showing of S21+ which is otherwise heavily Scandanavian and Saxon). We are quite sure that both of these markers are very old - and now it appears that the migration paths of each is not entirely as simple as I had hoped.

We need to test Ireland and Denmark to get a better sense of each marker. In all the testing of Ireland to date, only one S28 has been found and that might be Norman. The haplotype variability is very high everywhere especially for S28 - the exception being the Friesland cluster which correlates strongly to S21. Otherwise there is absolutely no way to predict status on either of these markers from a haplotype. We have SWAMH R1b haplotypes with aboriginal Shetland surnames that are S21+ and Friesland looking haplotypes (e.g., DYS390 = 23) in Shetland where the individuals with aboriginal surnames are S21 / S28 minus. It probably boils down to age - the markers are so ancient that divergence and convergence have failed to permit the development of a nice constellation of STR markers as characterizes the Ui Neill lineage (M222).

Being S28+ I am at a loss to know whether my ancestors in the direct male line from East Anglia, England were Belgae (Celt) or Danish Viking. Further testing is needed.

Is there a Danish geographical group that could be formed and we could talk deal on M269 (R1b) subgroup testing? I guess it is easier to just obtain research samples from Dr. Wilson's colleagues. If I was S21+ from East Anglia it would be a slam dunk for likely Anglo - Saxon but until we test Denmark I am at a loss to say anything about Danish Viking in relation to either marker. If Norway is any indication we will probably see some S28 but mostly S21 - but this is only guess work until the tests are run as I would not be surprised to find the ratio of S28 to S21 entirely different from what is seen in Norway. The entire Baltic Region is a complete vacuum at the moment.

The good news is that eventually we will have enough information to be able to characerize each marker - the bad news is that ....... not yet.

David Faux.


Dr. David K.W. Faux
President
Ethnoancestry USA, Inc.
www.ethnodna.com








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