GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-05 > 1146655652
From: "Daniel Jenkins" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Haemochromatosis and R1b and Plague
Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 11:27:32 +0000
Brian and List,
I am diagnosed as a HH carrier, having a het. mutation for the H63D. I am
R1A1 and don't know if I received mutatation from my father by his Irish
mother or my Irish mother. The disease was unkown and not diagnosed not
that long . There is much ongoing research thankfully. I was told that
researchers suspect that there are many more combinations of mutations that
will be found. In spite of being a carrier , so diagnosed, my ferritn level
is on a constant rise, now in the mid 400s from a low 2 years ago of -50
after 18 phlebotomies. My current doctor is most conservative and wants to
wait before calling for more phlebotomies, and I am somewhat in disagreement
with him. Diet appears to be helpful in slowing down elevation of ferritin.
Avoiding protein is more important than avoiding plant iron, as one will not
absorb the plant iron as readily. Some new studies have suggested that vit.
C may be a factor. As an experiment I have given up all supplements and
avoid all high vit. C products. Might see a difference in next test. But I
would rather eat what I like and get phlebotomies . I am a crusader in
educating people about this disaease , it affects many more parts of the
body than the organs. It can have a crippling effect on the joints
particularly the shoulders. I can attest to that. I have helped quite a few
people discover that they have the disease, and maybe added quite a few
years to their lives.
In regards to when the mutation happened , I somewhat feel that it may have
been about 540 ad at the begining of the dark ages. Dendochronologists point
to a very large and long event that caused crop failure,famine,plaques, and
the downfall of cultures. This seems to verify some of the ancient
chronicles of Ireland and England. There are a lot of articles at google
about this and one of the leading researchers is Prof. Baillie of Queens
College, Belfast. Type in " Mike Baillie".
>From: "brian quinn" <>
>Subject: [DNA] Haemochromatosis and R1b and Plague
>Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 20:00:50 +1000
>Paper above has a summary of European prevalence of % y allele
>1 Iceland 4.5
>2 Faeroe Islands) 5.1
>3 Norway Oslo) 7.8
>4 Sweden Umea 7.5
>5 Stockholm) 3.8
>6 Finland North-East 5.2
>7 Estonia Hiiumaa) 1.6
>8 Saaremaa 2.1
>9 Tartu) 4.3
>10 Russia Mordovinians 1.8
>11 Denmark Aalborg 6.8
>12 Copenhagen 6.2
>13 Ireland Dublin 14.2
>14 Belfast 9.9
>15 UK Aberdeen 8.4
>16 East Anglia 8.5
>17 North-East 7.1
>18 South Wales 5.9
>19 London 6.8
>20 Jersey 8.3
>21 Netherlands Utrecht4.1
>22 Germany Hamburg) 4.8
>23 Frankfurt 2.6
>24 Austria Vienna 4.1
>25 Hungary Budapest 5.6
>26 East 2.6
>27 Bulgaria Sophia 0
>28 France Lille 4
>29 Rennes) 2.9
>30 Brest 7.4
>31 Finiste`re sud 9.4
>32 Bretagne 5.6
>33 Paris 4
>34 Chambery 3.4
>35 Biarritz (Basques1.6
>36 Perpignan (Catalans) 2
>37 Grasse 2.2
>38 Toulouse) 4.2
>39 Montpellier 3.3
>40 Ajaccio) 1.4
>41 Italy Torino 1.1
>42 Milano 0.8
>43 Genoa 4.2
>44 Ferrare 2.3
>45 Napoli 0
>46 Portugal Porto 2.8
>47 Spain Galicia) 5
>48 (Basques) 2
>49 Barcelona 3
>50 (Catalans) 3.7
>51 Madrid ) 2
>52 Baleares 2.6
>53 Greece Athens 0.3
>"(however the analysis
>strictly applies only to an isolated populations).
>By linkage disequilibrium analysis, C282Y has
>been estimated (55) to have arisen around 62
>generations ago; assuming a mean generation
>time of 20 years, these times equate to 600800
>AD. This indicates that the C282Y mutation occurred
>relatively recently during human history."
>So this would account for the idea that the mutation is 2000 years ago,
>only 12-1400 years ago.
>That is after all the Celtic movements though.
>About right for Irish to have taken the gene to Iceland at its Viking
>However despite the Basques in Spain being low in hemachrom- the Galicians
>just to the west are quite high.
>It seems a coastal distribution except for Hungary. "Between 800 and about
>1000, Mediterranean port cities like Genoa, Pisa, and Toulouse were doing
>very well. After the year 1000, the new port of Venice became increasingly
>powerful......... By 1350, the plague wiped out about one out of every
>people in Europe, and "
>"Ireland was stricken in 1349. The Black Death came through the passes in
>the Alps in to Germany, and across the Rhine from France and Holland.
>Hamburg, the second most important port in the Hanseatic League, two-thirds
>of the population died of plague. Nuremberg, an important hub in
>trans-Alpine overland trade, the plague eliminated 10% of the populace,
>despite Nuremburg's excellent public health system. Mortality in Germany
>was, on the whole, lower than elsewhere. Yet morbidity rates in Baltic
>were often as high as could be found elsewhere in Europe (18).
>....Hungary lay on a plain, and was thus the habitat for many varieties of
>rodents. It also lay astride the Danube, and was hit much harder by the
>plague. Unfortunately, there are not reliable records as to the extent of
>the plague's morbidity in Eastern Europe (19)."
>I think the pattern matches the trade routes: Hanseatic Ports and Medit
>ports of the 14th Century.
> Hungary very hard hit meant that the Hema people survived and now are at
>elevated pop. Same in Toulouse and Genoa. Wonder what went wrong with
>Marseille then. Galicia has the port of A Corua where Spanish galleons
>to gather and today has oil refineries.
>The bubonic plague kills you with bleeding under the skin having extra
>should help(?) The pneumonic plague and you aren't at an advantage(?).
>I think that as Nora "IrishColleen" said that the hemo gene also protects
>you from Bubonic Plague.
>The pattern across Europe shows you where the plague devastated places-
>particularly ports. Hanseatic ports like Norwich in East Anglia, Oslo,
>Gdansk would have brought the earlier virulent versions in. The people who
>survived have the haemo gene and then they take over the neighbourhood.
>South Wales didnt have any Hanseatic ports so maybe they were spared until
>the later less virulent strains came in.
>Carrickfergus and Belfast in Northern Ireland brought in the disease early
>and thus was the downfall of the Plantagenets Ulster Empire, and the
>Clannaboys could move in with ease- as they maybe carried the immunity
>Tartu in the list seems an odd one but a Hanseatic port-so devastated early
>and only the resistant left.
>Perhaps R1b pops survived and I1a were wiped out accounting for the lesser
>amounts of I1a than you might have expected in England today. That's if the
>haem gene is indirectly linked to R1b.
>Perhaps the haem gene is very ancient the stats just reflect a (maybe
>several) Plague-based explosion of their heme pops. So they have a
>divergence when all other pops are contracting. This is only if the pop
>the early virulent version.
>Finally because the Basque are away from the port of A Coruna they didnt
>get afflicted with the virulent strains early. So has not led to favouring
>the heme gene in the Basque pop. Hmm maybe that is stretching the argument
>bit. Perhaps they just got wiped out nearly but have bred back slowly but
>From: ellen Levy [mailto:]
>Sent: Wednesday, 3 May 2006 12:27 PM
>Subject: Re: [DNA] Haemochromatosis and R1b was TMRCA interpretation, was
>I'm going to reiterate again from the R1b thread that
>I participated in last month: There is no genetic
>evidence that R1b (WAMH)along the Atlantic seaboard
>dates to the Paleolithic and, in fact, the evidence
>that does exist (particularly aDNA studies) indicates
>that it may date to the Neolithic or later. I realize
>the topic is Hemochromatosis, but I'll refer readers
>to the thread last month concerning the issue of
>whether the first inhabitants of the British Isles
>were "Celts" and R1b. The Celtic languages did not
>even arise until approximately 3000-4000 years ago.
>Thus, the Paleolithic inhabitants of the British
>Isles, whomever they were, were not speaking the
>Celtic tongue (or probably any Indo-European language,
>for that matter). More importantly, the assumption
>that the genetic structure of contemporary populations
>is reflective of that which existed in prehistoric
>populations is potentially highly misleading, as
>indicated by the aDNA studies on mtDNA.
>The Basques, who have the highest frequency of R1b
>among any Europeans, have the lowest frequency of
>hemochromatosis, while the Celtic populations (who are
>supposedly their closest R1b cousins) have the
>highest. Please refer to the list thread of Dec 8,
>2004 on this topic, including the 2001 paper by F.
>Bauduer entitled "Genetic Hemochromatosis is a Rare
>Disease Entity among French Basques: A Center-Based
>Study from the General Hospital of Basque Country."
>Gerard Lucotte, in his study, "Celtic Origin of the
>C282Y Mutation of Hemochromatosis," found that the low
>frequency of the C282Y allele in Basques "confirms
>that it is highly improbable that this mutation is of
>ancient European origin."
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|RE: [DNA] Haemochromatosis and R1b and Plague by "Daniel Jenkins" <>|