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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-05 > 1147227415


From: "brian quinn" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Haemochromatosis and R1b was TMRCA interpretation, was
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:16:55 +1000
In-Reply-To: <246baaff0605091136w240cbed6x1c02b3f95fdc48a@mail.gmail.com>


Dan, Paul and others

There are about three kinds of Hemochromatosis H63D, C282Y, and a childhood
variant. H63D seems most ancient. Some people have both H63D and C282Y and
then unfortunately get version of Porphyria that King George III may have
had. Maybe the Kings/Electors of Hanover have it, maybe their ancestral
Royal Stewarts of Scotland.

H63D highest prevalence at about 30% Basques, C282Y highest Irish at about
10%.

One suspects that is a function of in breeding in the Basques - the
cultural, geog, and language barrier and being quite strong and ancient. And
several periods of starvation plague? Wonder if H63D helps. I notice that
Leishmaniasis gets in the macrophages like plague. And leish' around Medit.



It seems that in C282Y is more or less restricted to North European haps.
But seems to get concentrated where there is inbreeding. The Afrikaners have
a high rate which apparently all comes from one Dutch couple who married in
1600s.

High H63D amount in Majorcan Jew pop -called Cueda, again an inbreeding
effect prob.

The Dublin and York Norse had alliances with the Irish and many an Irish
Chief's wife was a Norse lady. The Irish Ports were controlled by the Norse
for a while.

One wonders if the high rate in Dublin is a function of the Pale- I think it
was illegal to intermarry with the native Irish. 1366 Statute of Kilkenny.
The language barrier would have helped keep the pops apart.

C Kamla-Raj 2006 Int J Hum Genet, 6(1): 73-79 (2006)
Hereditary Hemochromatosis-Special Reference to Indian Scenario
Sandeep Poddar

Above ref says few C282Y or H63D in North India. As there are very ancient
R1a there, one suspects even H63D mutation occurred after the R1a split from
R1b. In addition after the ancient R1a in India retreated round to North
India at the Last Glacial Max.



One might go so far (but with great trepidation) as to say H63D spread from
the south anciently across europe. However must have been in european
glacial refuges.

C282Y spread from the north a couple of millennia ago. But they didn't
penetrate the southern areas of Europe except for a few Medit and Bay of
Biscay(Galicia) seaports. Some kind of port effect then, inbreeding and
maybe plague etc.

The Vikings and Normans seem well implicated/ They both raided La Courun in
Galicia, Spain. An outlier of C282Y is at Galicia.

However there is no C282Y in Sicily and as an old Norman province there
should be some trace.


Strangely more in C282Y in East Anglia than in South Wales. So sounds like
the Friesians may have had a hand in it as well. The Friesians being
Franconian speaking may have taken it to Hungary/Romania when the Frankish
Empire expanded. Medieval Kings Hung/Rom brought in Franconian Saxons to
guard the frontiers.


There is some C282Y in Galicia right next door to H282Y Basques. Maybe
effect of the Port Of Coruna. Where the Spanish Armada assembled. The area
was also settled by Suevi back in Roman times as foederati- that is more or
less hired by Romans to settle on the frontier and guard it. Don't think
Vikings had anything special to do with it, though it was a port that traded
to Waterford and Munster in Ireland anciently and a poss source of the
Gaels. The Celtic Galicians think so anyway. But those Galicians came from
Gaul themselves so would be likely H282Y.

So I think it is the Suevi down there who arrived about. However the Vikings
did their best to raid Santiago di Compostela, so much so that the locals
built a series of towers to keep them out. http://www.catoira.net/.

Suevi seem to have been Franconia speakers too or at least from same area.
So one would think that R1b1c9 and R1b1c10 may be implicated as spreaders of
C282Y back in the dark ages.


On the other hand if Viking then I1a should be implicated.

Apologies if I am being offensive here but think it worth noting: Mac
Guinness, Neeson McVeigh had I1a I think and reckoned Cruithne.
Fitzpatrick(hi great granda+) also around there at Dromore and surname Gilla
Padraig suppose to indicate dedicating themselves to St Patrick when they
converted to Christianity. So taken to be a Norse/Viking name.

I have a feeling they have Norman/ Viking ancestors. The Vikings had a fleet
on Lough Neagh, and a fort at Magheralin right in the heart of North County
Down. About 1000 Brian Boru tried to destroy them but obviously didn't as
ggranda Fitzpatrick still there. Of course they came back again shortly
after disguised as the Normans.


Would be interesting to know if the Dark warriors ie Norweigian Norsemen:
Dudh glas (perhaps Douglas later) had the C282Y more than the bann glas- the
fair warriors- or Swedish/Danish Vikings.

Norweigians seem more West Europeans to me R1b etc and dark hair. Whereas
Danes fair and more eastern Europeans and more I1a. Both probably have it at
the same %, but it gets magnified where there is in breeding.

Enough rambling on. And the day is nearly in so I'm not going to edit it
anymore.


quinny





-----Original Message-----
From: Havelock Vetinari [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 May 2006 4:36 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Haemochromatosis and R1b was TMRCA interpretation, was

Actually, I think that hemochromatosis is rare in Basques so it is not
solely associated with R1b.

Regards,

Paul D.

On 5/8/06, Glen Todd <> wrote:
>

> Is hemochromatosis solely associated with R1b, or does it show up in other
> Western European populations?
>
> Glen


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