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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Help Please - Irish Surnames - Fitzgeralds
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 04:13:14 EDT


The O Clery Book of Genealogies do have a pedigree for the Fitzgeralds (I
missed it earlier).

Genelach Iarla Desmhuman

2225. Geroit, (Mor ingen Maoil ruanaidh mic Seaain ui Cerbaill a mathair) m.
Semais, (Mor ingen Donnchada mic Briain duibh ui Briain a mathair) m.
Seaain, (Elis ingen an Bharraigh moir a mathair), m. Tomais m Semais m. Geroit,
(Maire Burc ingen Mic Uilliam a mathair), m. Muiris (.i. an cediarla, ingen an
Bharraigh moir a mathair), m. Tomais m. Muiris m. Seaain m. Tomais m. Muiris
m. Gerailt m. Muiris m. Gerailt mhoir (ar geinetar Geraltaigh) m. Roibert m.
Uilliam m. Muiris m. Seoin m. Roibeirt m. Uilliam m. Roibeirt mhoir o
Woinsior.

This says:

Gerald (Mor, the daughter of Mulrooney son of John O'Carroll was his mother)
son of James (Mor, the daughter of Donnogh son of Brian duff O'Brien was his
mother) son of John (Elis, daughter of the Barry Mor was his mother) son of
Thomas son of James son of Gerald (Mary Burke daughter of Mac William was his
mother) son of Maurice (ie, the fourth Earl, the daughter of the Barry Mor
was his mother) son of Thomas son of Maurice son of John son of Thomas son of
Maurice son of Gerald son of Maurice son of Gerald Mor (from whom the
Geraltaighs) son of Robert son of William son of Maurice son of John son of Robert
son of William son of Robert Mor of Windsor.

Pretty strange, eh?

I haven't been able to track this down yet but it appears there was a
Robert of Windsor, thought to be a son of Walter Fitz Other. But according to
this article he was actually the son of Walter the Deacon, Domesday holder of
the barony of Little Easton.

Additions and Corrections to Sanders’s Baronies.
Katharine S. B. Keats-Rohan (University of Oxford)

_http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/prosopon/issue11-2.pdf_
(http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/prosopon/issue11-2.pdf)


The Walter FitzWalter mentioned would seem to be the same Walter said be
an ancestor of the Fitzgeralds.

Walter FitzWalter
Gerald (wife, Nesta)
Maurice Fitzgerald (invaded Ireland)

The Maurice Fitzgerald in the O Clery pedigree (who invaded Ireland) is the
Muiris m. Gerailt mhoir (ar geinetar Geraltaigh) in the pedigree.
Accordingly his father was named Robert in O Clery and not Walter FitzWalter.

Maurice Fitzgerald (who invaded Ireland) is said to have been born about
1100 AD. and died 1177. The Domesday book is date 1086, or 100 years
previously which shouldn't encompass more the three generations or so. So it looks
to me like this pedigree in O Clery is unhistorical (too many generations back
to Robert of Windsor) but I wonder how the Irish scribes got the name Robert
of Windsor in the first place? It is somewhat puzzling that a Robert of
Windsor has been linked in some sources as a son of Walter FitzOther, named as
the ancestor of the Fitzgeralds

The article on the Domeday book also mentions that this Robert of Windsor
was thought to be called Robert FitzWalter. Is it possible the Fitzgeralds
actually descend from Robert of Windsor, son of Walter the Deacon, Domesday
holder of the barony of Little Easton? The O Clery genealogies would seem
to be inaccurate but I wonder if there might be a kernel of truth in the names.

I have no idea myself.

There is an enigmatic reference to a Nesta in the O Clery genealogies.
Unfortunately it's beyond my limited capabilities in Irish to ferret out the
meaning.

The following passage is talking about Gerald Mor, father of Maurice.

O do-cuaidh, imorro, Geralt isin turus sin tria forcongra an righ fair ro
bhuadaigh gach cath et gach congal for Breatnaibh co nderna tir caorac do
Bretain uile fri sidh ocus fri saimhe gur toibghestair cios ocus dligedh righ
Saxan orra dia n-aimdeoin; et tug mnaoi etarra iarsin .i. ingen ridire ro-uasail
.i. Nesda a h-ainm, et as i ropa mathair do Roibert mac Stiamhna ocus d'Epscob
S. Dauith, et rucc si clann don Gherailt sin .i. Muiris et Uilliam.

The only part of this I can make out is "ingen" (daughter) of ..... and
.... mother of Robert son of Stiamhna and the Bishop St. David and the children
of Gerald..., ie, Muiris and William.

Stiamhna is apparently "Steven." ridire ro-uasail would appear to mean
"noble knight", I think Nesta is called a dau. of the noble knight.

Does any of this make sense to anyone? For all I know it may well be
saying Gerald (father of Maurice) married Nesta. But the pedigrees still link
this Gerald to a Robert and not Walter FitzOther.


John

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