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From: "William Hurst" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Three mtDNA K charts
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:54:17 -0400
References: <447EE162.4010905@worldnet.att.net>


Interesting observations, Jim. Figuring out origins from the British Isles
is complicated, due to the many invasions and movements back and forth. I
would bet a lot of the listed countries of origin are based on guesswork or
family traditions. My Hurst Y-DNA group includes men who have professed
belief that the family came from Ireland, Wales and Germany; but I think
England is the correct answer. But how the line got to England is still
unclear. We don't fit into any of the known branches, unless you count David
Faux's "negative on all lower SNPs" group. A Norse or Scandinavian origin
for anybody in the British Isles is always a possibility. Maps, such as the
one on the Genographic Project website, showing the origin of mtDNA
haplogroup K usually stop near Scandinavia. If you look at the map on the K
website, somehow they moved from there to Ireland and eastern Europe. What's
significant is that you don't find a 524 insertion in Belarus and you don't
find many 16234T's in Ireland. Since you are more likely to find the latter
and the former, I hope the large scientific studies in the future don't
ignore the 524 insertions just because they are "recurrent." As I said,
"recurrent doesn't mean random."

Yes, the Odle name, along with Odel, was common in old records, especially
the census. The common modern versions are O'Dell and Odell. These are not
guesses; I have 51 of these folks in my computer and 10 Hurst-O'Dell/Odell
marriages. You have reminded me that I should contact the Mary Odle from
Tennessee descendant to see if she is connected to my Virginia O'Dells. Odds
are she is.

I should look more at the "mtDNA Recent Ancestral Origins" section of the
FTDNA personal page. Perhaps the reason I haven't is that I have zero
matches there. I just noticed that one of the "perfect" K1c2's on my Chart 2
has a match with a person, not in the K project, who has taken the
full-sequence test and is now labeled a K1c2. The matches are mostly
Ireland. "British K's" might be another study subject; Dr. Behar has done
the "Ashkenazi K's" very well. My charts 1 and 2 are not the only subclades
or clusters found in Britain. I did recently look at the Scandinavian K's on
MitoSearch, but I don't think the population is large enough yet to be
useful.

Bill Hurst

>
> Again, brilliant work, Bill.
>
> On the branch with 16048A, I concur that it points to Ireland, despite
> the fact that the associated surnames Franklin, Harris, Bye, and Odle
> (which I assume is the same as Odell) are all English. Mine is
> Franklin, definitely Irish Catholics by the time they emigrated. The
> posters of the Harris, Bye, and Odle cases don't know their European
> origin, but I think they should look to Ireland too, at least on the
> mtDNA line.
>
>
> Here is the list places of origin of my matches on FTDNA:
>
> England 1
> Germany 1
> Ireland 7
> Norway 1
> Sweden 1
> UK 2
> Unknown 8
> Wales 1
>
> This plus some data I got from another company suggests that this mtDNA
> line eventually leads back to the Norse region. Not sure how to reflect
> that on Chart 1.
>
> Thanks again, Bill.
>
> Jim

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