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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-06 > 1149216420


From: "Lawrence Mayka" <>
Subject: RE: Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:48:58 -0500
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20060601001120.01c391e0@samsloan.com>


> From: Sam Sloan [mailto:]
> These people are basically White. They are very European in
> appearance.

Many people in the Caucasus and surrounding areas are very pale-skinned.
Indeed, that is where we get the obsolescent term 'Caucasian'.

> These people live right at the point of crossing the top of
> the Hindu Kush into Central Asia, which is where the M45
> Group took hold. This later mutated to M173 and finally to M343.

M45 is what we now call yDNA haplogroup P. I agree with you that a region
that preserves the original haplogroup P may well be the original source of
later Q and R (and then R1, R1a, and R1b).

> Although M343 can be found throughout Europe, it are
> strongest in England. Therefore, I believe that the Modern
> English got to Europe first and then were pushed over to the
> remote island where they are today by subsequent migrations.

The predominance of R1b in western Europe is usually explained by a more
elaborate sequence of events, including a refugium (place of refuge from the
Ice Age) in Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal).

> Are women useful for testing purposes, or do you need men?

In general, genetic testers have found that mitochondrial DNA (the kind that
can be tested in women) has been 'mixed around', perhaps because throughout
history most societies have encouraged the wife to relocate to the husband's
home and land. This 'mixing' makes localization of haplogroups to regions
more difficult.

> If you need men, I have one 100% pure Kalash friend in
> Pakistan and I have a Nuristani friend also in Pakistan.

I encourage everyone to undergo genealogical genetic testing, to the extent
that their financial resources allow. ;) The more data points we have, the
better conclusions we can make.

> The Kalash (Black Kafirs) and the Nuristani (Red Kafirs)
> believe that they are originally the same race, but I do not
> believe that they are and I think that both should be tested.

Your term 'race' here is both obsolete and incorrect. A better term is
'stock'.

> Have tests like this on these people already been done?

I don't know whether a genetic study has been done on the peoples you
mention.

> What do you think about this?

I think you would need to test men in the region of your interest, in the
hope of finding yDNA haplogroup P. If you find a significant percentage of
P, you have a strong argument that they are, or at least include, the human
stock from which Q and R emigrated.

With respect to Proto-Indo-Europeans in particular, here is an interesting
argument. Genetically, we usually presume that the original home of a
haplogroup is the region in which that haplogroup exhibits greatest
diversity. Well, one could make a similar argument for languages. In that
respect, consider this quotation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khowar
---
The Norwegian Linguist Georg Morgenstierne wrote that Chitral is the area of
the greatest linguistic diversity in the world. Although Khowar is the
predominant language of Chitral, more than ten other languages are spoken
here. These include Kalasha, Phalura, Dameli, Gawar-Bati, Nuristani, Yidgha,
Burushaski, Gujar, Wakhi, Kyrgyz, Persian and Pashto.
---

Of these, the following are definitely described as Indo-European: Pashto,
Persian, Wakhi, Gujar, Yidgha, Nuristani, Kalasha, and Khowar. The
following languages have not been well-studied and so are apparently not
definitively classified: Gawar-Bati, Dameli, and Phalura. Wikipedia says
that each of these three "is classified as a Dardic Language but this is
more of a geographical classification than a linguistic one." Burushaski is
an isolate, and Kyrgyz is Turkic.

This is what Wikipedia says of the Kalash:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalasha
---
One theory suggests that similarities in the culture of the Kalash and
Greco-Macedonian peoples stem from the expansion of Proto-Indo-Europeans.
---

My linguistic points here are:

A) You could make an argument that Chitral is the cradle of
Proto-Indo-European, on the basis of linguistic diversity.

B) You could make an argument that the isolate languages of the region
(i.e., the languages that are not Indo-European, Turkic, etc.) might well be
remnant populations from earlier eras--e.g., the era of haplogroup P before
the emergence of Q and R.


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