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Subject: Re: [DNA] RE: Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:05:30 +0100


Lawrence

there are *no* "preserved" haplogroups. There are only haplogroups which are
relatively rare or restricted geographically so that not enough testing has
been done to detect their defining SNPs.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the Sengupta study reported that some
samples from the Kalash population tested R* i.e. positive for M207 and
negative for M173 and M124. Similar results were also found in the
neighbouring Burusho population, whose language Burushaski is unrelated to
any other. These R* people have undoubtedly accumulated thousands of years
worth of SNPs since M207 but unless one of them is included in a SNP
discovery or resequencing project their unique SNPs will remain
undiscovered. No P* results were found in India or Pakistan in the Sengupta
study but the same argument would apply - they are not "living fossils" but
merely groups who for some reason have never expanded numerically and
geographically like other groups have.

The unusual SNP results and the language isolate may together be considered
evidence that elements of the population have been in the region for a very
long time. But remember we are talking about thousands of years and this is
plenty of time for languages which were once widely spoken to become extinct
or confined to a much smaller area (not necessarily the area in which they
arose) and for haplogroup proportions to change considerably in individual
populations.

Gareth





----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Mayka" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:48 AM
Subject: [DNA] RE: Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People


> > From: Sam Sloan [mailto:]
>
> > These people live right at the point of crossing the top of
> > the Hindu Kush into Central Asia, which is where the M45
> > Group took hold. This later mutated to M173 and finally to M343.
>
> M45 is what we now call yDNA haplogroup P. I agree with you that a region that preserves the original haplogroup P may well be the original source of later Q and R (and then R1, R1a, and R1b).

> > If you need men, I have one 100% pure Kalash friend in
> > Pakistan and I have a Nuristani friend also in Pakistan.
>
> I encourage everyone to undergo genealogical genetic testing, to the extent that their financial resources allow. ;) The more data points we have, the better conclusions we can make.

>
> I think you would need to test men in the region of your interest, in the
> hope of finding yDNA haplogroup P. If you find a significant percentage of P, you have a strong argument that they are, or at least include, the human stock from which Q and R emigrated.
>
> With respect to Proto-Indo-Europeans in particular, here is an interesting argument. Genetically, we usually presume that the original home of a haplogroup is the region in which that haplogroup exhibits greatest diversity. Well, one could make a similar argument for languages. In that respect, consider this quotation:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khowar
> ---
> The Norwegian Linguist Georg Morgenstierne wrote that Chitral is the area of the greatest linguistic diversity in the world. Although Khowar is the predominant language of Chitral, more than ten other languages are spoken here. These include Kalasha, Phalura, Dameli, Gawar-Bati, Nuristani, Yidgha, Burushaski, Gujar, Wakhi, Kyrgyz, Persian and Pashto.
> ---
>
> Of these, the following are definitely described as Indo-European: Pashto, Persian, Wakhi, Gujar, Yidgha, Nuristani, Kalasha, and Khowar. The following languages have not been well-studied and so are apparently not definitively classified: Gawar-Bati, Dameli, and Phalura. Wikipedia says that each of these three "is classified as a Dardic Language but this is more of a geographical classification than a linguistic one." Burushaski is an isolate, and Kyrgyz is Turkic.
>
> This is what Wikipedia says of the Kalash:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalasha
> ---
> One theory suggests that similarities in the culture of the Kalash and
> Greco-Macedonian peoples stem from the expansion of Proto-Indo-Europeans.
> ---
>
> My linguistic points here are:
>
> A) You could make an argument that Chitral is the cradle of
> Proto-Indo-European, on the basis of linguistic diversity.
>
> B) You could make an argument that the isolate languages of the region
> (i.e., the languages that are not Indo-European, Turkic, etc.) might well be remnant populations from earlier eras--e.g., the era of haplogroup P before the emergence of Q and R.

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