GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-07 > 1151922340
From: David Faux <>
Subject: R1b, WAHM, and Subclades
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 03:25:40 -0700 (PDT)
So that whole thing I read somewhere about DYS390=23, DYS391=11, and
DYS392=13 being strongly indicative of S21+, that is bogus then?
Not at all. There was at some time say 2500 years ago a patriach in the Saxony or Friesland area with a motif which has been termed "Friesland" by Ken N. and consists of a valid cluster or markers such as those you note above. This man happened to have many descendants - perhaps a Genghis Khan of the north - and so those who match the modal for this "Friesland" type have an extremely high probabiliy of being S21 (but due to convergence there is no certainty involved). It just so happens that the bulk of S21 or R1b1c9 cannot be differentiated from R1b1c* without SNP testing. Hopefully as the numbers increase we will see other clusters for S21 and S28 but so far the latter is even less likely to be predicted by a knowledge of haplotype markers. This is in part a function of the low numbers of people who have been tested to date. What is clear, however, is that about 20% of R1b will be S21+ and the percentage goes to beyond 75% in places such as Norway. Right now
about 10% of R1b are S28+ but if samples were taken from say the Balkans or even parts of France the percentages would be much higher - however the sampling here is skewed toward Britain so the true percentages are unknown at present. There are some interesting possibilites here in relation to the pre Anglo - Saxon era since beginning about 100 BC there was a migration of the Belgae people (who appear to have been a mix of R1b1c*, R1b1c9, and R1b1c10 - based on our study of Anglsey, Wales). There may be a group of Southern Irish who are S21+; and clearly there are a large percentage of Lowland Scots who are also S21+. Other than the Belgae aristocratic and druid refugees (documented in Roman sources) who made a last stand in Anglesey the only S28 in Britain are along the Eastern coast within the areas where the Danish Vikings settled in 880 AD - these being the descendants of the sole Celtic enclave within the "Germanic" regions - the Charudes / Cimbri from Jutland. It
all gets a tad complicated but we are slowly teasing things out.
Dr. David K.W. Faux
Ethnoancestry USA, Inc.