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Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b SNP page updated
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 14:40:45 +0100
John
this may be another recombinational effect, but one of the distinctive
values emerging for R1b1c7 is DYS413=21-23 compared to 23-23 for R1b1c
generally. 21-23 is also the modal for R1b1* samples in Africa per the
papers by Scozzari et al. Convergence or survival of ancestral values adding
evidence of a non-Iberian origin for M222?
It will be interesting to see if with enough data the new markers support an
early split for R1b1c7 from the rest of R1b1c.
Gareth
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b SNP page updated
>
> From: "John McEwan" <>
>
> > I personally think the Irish cluster is far older than its TMRCA
> > suggests which is about 3400 years. I think it is a remnant of an
> > earlier R1b group and I also feel that it was unlikely to have even been
> > in Iberia in the last glacial period, because it would have left some
> > more substantial trace behind. This is getting pretty radical compared
> > with the existing scientific dogma, but I put it out there for comment.
>
>
> We probably use a different set of markers to make the age estimate, and if
> you use a TMRCA we use different methods (I use a variance or ASD measure),
> but I get using 26 markers an ASD for northwest Irish R1b which is 59.8
> percent that of AngloSaxon I1a (my base standard). If I use 10,000 years as
> I1a-AS age, which is somewhat arbitrary but in the ballpark of Rootsi ages,
> then northwest Irish R1b is substantially older than your estimate but still
> young enough to have had its founding in situ (British Isles). It's almost
> complete absence on the continent makes me very suspect of any founding back
> there --- north or south (with France being the usual hole in our
> understanding)
>
> My ASD for northwest Irish R1b is by the way quite close to that found for
> the Scot variety of Isles I1b2a1 (M284+) = old I1c-Isles. It would be
> interesting to know the climate history of the most northerly parts of the
> British Isles in order to get a sense of when that country opened up for
> habitation if it were substantially later than the more southerly parts of
> the British Isles?
>
> Ken
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