Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-08 > 1154918434

From: "brian quinn" <>
Subject: Irish_Europe_R_haplogroups and the Ice Age.
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 12:40:34 +1000
In-Reply-To: <000601c6b963$5701bb70$6401a8c0@charlie1>


I have been contemplating the R haplogroups and the distribution in Ireland
and rest of Europe. Looking for a pattern.

I was a bit confused after reading that Basque groups R1b3D(M153) is
same as R1b1c4(don't know which Basque H group- anyone help?)

and R1b3f(M167) is R1b1c6(also Basque H103- their third most
frequent, and also called Hap22).

And Basque H104- (their most frequent) is R1b1c* also called R1b and
also is Type III Irish.

Also R1bSTR19- mostly in north half of Ireland, used to be called
Conn's Half is a R1b1c.

It's child is the O'Neill haplogroup also called North West Modal or
M222+ or R1b1c7.

So it seems that Basque H104 (their most frequent on a small sample mind!)is
same as Type III Irish same as most of Atlantic Europe. And derives from
before the Last Glacial Maximum about 30,000 years ago. Some of their
relatives went to Sardinia M18, some Central Asia (M78) and some to
Cameroons in West Africa(I take it they are pre M343?and maybe pre split
with R1a?) These guys all retreated before the LGM into non iced areas which
could be parts of Southern Ireland, southern Wales and southern England.
There may have been clear patches in north Germany. If the Inuit can live in
the arctic circle I'm sure that some of the R haplogroup were at the Ice
edge too. In summer it gets quite warm even in Siberia 10 deg C and the
midges come out in their billions and the reindeer migrate north. The Red
Lady of Paviland in South Wales

, the Gower Peninsula, was buried with a Mammoth bone. 29,000 years ago.
Stone tools were found in the ground around about, thus the most recent Ice
Sheet at that time never gouged the ground in the Gower Peninsula.

So I would guess that there were H104/Type III Irish from Spain to South
Wales, but the pop density maybe higher to the south- or was it? The
plentiful water from the summer melt may have counteracted the drought
towards the Mediterranean Sea. The Mammoth etc herds would not be able to
cross the Pyrennees without being endlessly ambushed in the main passes.

And Mammoth did not graze on lichen, they needed vast quantities of grass
and probably juniper and birch etc.

Coldest time in the Last Ice Age being at about 16,000 bp.

Here's some Cave Art form Britain after the coldest time, but stone tools
nearby at the coldest time and the site was never grazed by ice so always
habitable by the hardy sort of folk.

"The dates are consistent with Late Upper Palaeolithic people, whose
archaeology is well represented at Creswell, being the makers of the
engravings, and clearly rules out the possibility of forgery. A series of
radiocarbon determinations, largely on human-modified arctic hare bones
found in association with Late Upper Palaeolithic stone artefacts from Robin
Hood Cave, Church Hole and Pin Hole, give a tight cluster of calibrated
dates in the range 13.2-15.7 ka BP (Hedges et al., 1989, Hedges et al.,
1994). Our U-series dates are in excellent agreement with these radiocarbon
dates and represent the best ages obtainable for occupation of Creswell
Crags by humans in the Late Upper Palaeolithic. The discovery and
verification of cave art in Britain has important implications for the
understanding of the Late Pleistocene hunter-gatherers who created it. The
contemporaneity and stylistic similarity of the Church Hole and Robin Hood
cave engravings with many examples on the continent, reveals the connection
between the continental Magdalenian and the Late Upper Palaeolithic
technology at Creswell. At least in terms of art, it seems that Europe was
unified a very long time ago."

So perhaps the M343, R1b1c* or just R1b, or Type III Irish- the common west
European haplogroup is the Aurignacian up to peak of LGM in 16,000, then the
Magelenian maybe the M269, R1b1c and R1bSTR19 in Ireland particularly to
12,000, then the Mesolithic about 9,000 being when the R1b1c6,7,10 happen
and spread about.

(and I am not saying that the Magdelenian had to had the mutation M269 to
become cave artists just around as a tech when the mut occurred)

Then the English Channel starts to become sea water instead of being an
enormous fresh water Rhine etc river. It no longer freezes in winter so that
it is easily crossed. (I am always amazed that Niagara Falls freezes in

And all the groups start to speciate- so to speak so R1bSTR19 evolves to
R1bc7 or O'Donnel or cenell connalli(sp?).

So I think hunting for geography(apart from Atlantic Europe) that correlate
with anything before R1bc6,7,9,10 haplogroups etc is a waste of time, except
for them indicating a rough geographic start point. That is except for the
islands like Ireland where there seem to be few later mutations and then you
maybe can see that the Aurignacians are all over but the Magdalenian's or
R1bSTR19 arrived later and mainly to the north of Ireland. Then as the
Mesolithic folk have to paddle over from Scotland they have to come in from
the north in smaller numbers- maybe have I1a in their family groups- well I
don't know maybe there were first.

Something like that anyway. Would mean that all the surname and genealogy
hunting is only vaguely helped by haplogroups?

Is there any point in saying someone is Type III Irish if that is most of
west Europe and most Basques, most Irish?

R1bSTR19 what's the point of that too if it is just a relative of R1b1c/
M269 mut and also occurs across west Europe?

Brian Quinn- confused again after I thought I had solved it.

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