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From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Irish_Europe_R_haplogroups and the Ice Age.
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 22:17:48 -0600
References: <NFBBJIGLNLMGJIOLOGFBGEGNHEAA.scorpion@netconnect.com.au>


Dennis, Did I mention that I found that Irish3 R1b has a modal shift at the
new marker DYS557. I find it 15 repeats instead of general R1b which I
believe is 16.

Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Wright" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 10:03 PM
Subject: RE: [DNA] Irish_Europe_R_haplogroups and the Ice Age.


> Oops I meant "Just because Irish Type III has NOT been found to have a
> distinctive SNP ..."
> Dennis
>
> Brian,
>
> I think I have identified that the paper you speak of which tested 8
> markers, STRs (DYS388, DYS19, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS389I, and
> DYS389II) and the most common values were given the label H104 which we
> know
> as the R1b Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype. Certainly very common
> throughout Western Europe but cannot be called Irish Type III which is
> merely a subset of WAMH and concentrated in a small area of Ireland,
> namely
> the counties of Clare, Tipperary, Limerick and Kilkenny.
> Just because Irish Type III has not been found to have a distinctive SNP
> it
> should not be lumped in with all the rest of R1b that doesn't have a
> distinctive SNP. One day we will find one!
> Regards
> Dennis Wright
> Irish Type III
> 6PWCD
> R1b1c*
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brian quinn [mailto:]
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 12:41 PM
> To:
> Subject: [DNA] Irish_Europe_R_haplogroups and the Ice Age.
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I have been contemplating the R haplogroups and the distribution in
> Ireland
> and rest of Europe. Looking for a pattern.
>
> I was a bit confused after reading that Basque groups R1b3D(M153) is
> same as R1b1c4(don't know which Basque H group- anyone help?)
>
> and R1b3f(M167) is R1b1c6(also Basque H103- their third most
> frequent, and also called Hap22).
>
> And Basque H104- (their most frequent) is R1b1c* also called R1b and
> also is Type III Irish.
>
> Also R1bSTR19- mostly in north half of Ireland, used to be called
> Conn's Half is a R1b1c.
>
> It's child is the O'Neill haplogroup also called North West Modal or
> M222+ or R1b1c7.
>
> So it seems that Basque H104 (their most frequent on a small sample
> mind!)is
> same as Type III Irish same as most of Atlantic Europe. And derives from
> before the Last Glacial Maximum about 30,000 years ago. Some of their
> relatives went to Sardinia M18, some Central Asia (M78) and some to
> Cameroons in West Africa(I take it they are pre M343?and maybe pre split
> with R1a?) These guys all retreated before the LGM into non iced areas
> which
> could be parts of Southern Ireland, southern Wales and southern England.
> There may have been clear patches in north Germany. If the Inuit can live
> in
> the arctic circle I'm sure that some of the R haplogroup were at the Ice
> edge too. In summer it gets quite warm even in Siberia 10 deg C and the
> midges come out in their billions and the reindeer migrate north. The Red
> Lady of Paviland in South Wales
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lady_of_Paviland
>
> , the Gower Peninsula, was buried with a Mammoth bone. 29,000 years ago.
> Stone tools were found in the ground around about, thus the most recent
> Ice
> Sheet at that time never gouged the ground in the Gower Peninsula.
>
> So I would guess that there were H104/Type III Irish from Spain to South
> Wales, but the pop density maybe higher to the south- or was it? The
> plentiful water from the summer melt may have counteracted the drought
> towards the Mediterranean Sea. The Mammoth etc herds would not be able to
> cross the Pyrennees without being endlessly ambushed in the main passes.
>
> http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/cbaresrep/pdf/077/07701013.pdf
>
> And Mammoth did not graze on lichen, they needed vast quantities of grass
> and probably juniper and birch etc.
>
> Coldest time in the Last Ice Age being at about 16,000 bp.
>
> Here's some Cave Art form Britain after the coldest time, but stone tools
> nearby at the coldest time and the site was never grazed by ice so always
> habitable by the hardy sort of folk.
>
> "The dates are consistent with Late Upper Palaeolithic people, whose
> archaeology is well represented at Creswell, being the makers of the
> engravings, and clearly rules out the possibility of forgery. A series of
> radiocarbon determinations, largely on human-modified arctic hare bones
> found in association with Late Upper Palaeolithic stone artefacts from
> Robin
> Hood Cave, Church Hole and Pin Hole, give a tight cluster of calibrated
> dates in the range 13.2-15.7 ka BP (Hedges et al., 1989, Hedges et al.,
> 1994). Our U-series dates are in excellent agreement with these
> radiocarbon
> dates and represent the best ages obtainable for occupation of Creswell
> Crags by humans in the Late Upper Palaeolithic. The discovery and
> verification of cave art in Britain has important implications for the
> understanding of the Late Pleistocene hunter-gatherers who created it. The
> contemporaneity and stylistic similarity of the Church Hole and Robin Hood
> cave engravings with many examples on the continent, reveals the
> connection
> between the continental Magdalenian and the Late Upper Palaeolithic
> technology at Creswell. At least in terms of art, it seems that Europe was
> unified a very long time ago."
> http://www2.open.ac.uk/ou-usf/Projects%20files/Archaeology.htm
>
> So perhaps the M343, R1b1c* or just R1b, or Type III Irish- the common
> west
> European haplogroup is the Aurignacian up to peak of LGM in 16,000, then
> the
> Magelenian maybe the M269, R1b1c and R1bSTR19 in Ireland particularly to
> 12,000, then the Mesolithic about 9,000 being when the R1b1c6,7,10 happen
> and spread about.
>
> (and I am not saying that the Magdelenian had to had the mutation M269 to
> become cave artists just around as a tech when the mut occurred)
>
> Then the English Channel starts to become sea water instead of being an
> enormous fresh water Rhine etc river. It no longer freezes in winter so
> that
> it is easily crossed. (I am always amazed that Niagara Falls freezes in
> winter!)
>
> And all the groups start to speciate- so to speak so R1bSTR19 evolves to
> R1bc7 or O'Donnel or cenell connalli(sp?).
>
> So I think hunting for geography(apart from Atlantic Europe) that
> correlate
> with anything before R1bc6,7,9,10 haplogroups etc is a waste of time,
> except
> for them indicating a rough geographic start point. That is except for the
> islands like Ireland where there seem to be few later mutations and then
> you
> maybe can see that the Aurignacians are all over but the Magdalenian's or
> R1bSTR19 arrived later and mainly to the north of Ireland. Then as the
> Mesolithic folk have to paddle over from Scotland they have to come in
> from
> the north in smaller numbers- maybe have I1a in their family groups- well
> I
> don't know maybe there were first.
>
> Something like that anyway. Would mean that all the surname and genealogy
> hunting is only vaguely helped by haplogroups?
>
> Is there any point in saying someone is Type III Irish if that is most of
> west Europe and most Basques, most Irish?
>
> R1bSTR19 what's the point of that too if it is just a relative of R1b1c/
> M269 mut and also occurs across west Europe?
>
>
> Brian Quinn- confused again after I thought I had solved it.
>
>
>
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