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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-08 > 1154983845


From: "Dale E. Reddick" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Indo-European Y-DNA
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:53:26 -0400
References: <BAY122-F20D1ABDBFA522ABEF61BAFDA570@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <BAY122-F20D1ABDBFA522ABEF61BAFDA570@phx.gbl>


Hi Folks,

J. P. Mallory postulated (with some linguistic and [I think] some
archaeological evidence) that there had been an earlier Indo-European or
Indo-Aryan culture present in what is now Iran when the earliest Iranian
(a.k.a. Aryan: Persian & Mede populations (and related folks like the
Saka & Bactrians to the northeast) arrived in that area. Also, the
Elamite culture and its political structures were destroyed by the
Assyrian Empire. This opened up those Elamite lands to settlement by
those Iranian populations. Later, it was the Medes and Babylonians who
finished off the Assyrians (to none of the Assyrians' neighbors'
sorrow). Then the Persians took over the resulting Median empire. And
after that the Persians practically caught the Babylonians with their
pants down during a party...

The Assyrians and Chaldeans had certainly been deep into what became
Iranian / Persian territory. So, there is that -possible- Semitic
aspect to this. But, if the Elamites were an essentially Dravidian
population and then if the precursors of the Iranian invaders into the
Zagros Mountains of Iran / Persia were an earlier Indo-Aryan people -
well, then it's a real mix of peoples we're possibly looking at in that
particular region. Alas, that's nothing new...

Dale E. Reddick
________________________________

Jackson Montgomery-Devoni wrote:
> Rich wrote:
>> I am not familiar with dna studies of the Kurds, but I would be
>> surprised if they were exclusively J2.
>>
>> The Kurds have lived for centuries - possibly millenia - in the midst
>> of Semitic-speaking neighbors among whom y-haplogroup J predominates.
>> It doesn't seem likely the Kurds spread that J to their neighbors.
>> The reverse is the logical conclusion.
>
> It to me does not seem likely that either group really spread Y-DNA to
> eachother. Haplogroup J would most likely have been present among both
> groups for a very long time.
>
> The consensus of opinion, as I understand it, is that the
>> Indo-Iranians, of whom the Medes and Persians were two tribes,
>> originated on the Eurasian Steppe. It seems likely they were mostly
>> R1a, although it is doubtful any people can long remain genetically
>> homogeneous.
>
> J2 could have easily been a part of the Indo-Iranian gene pool for a
> long time on the steepes. Much ''native'' J2 could have stayed in Iran
> and other J2s mixed with R1as couls have come in from the steppes then
> with horses at a later date. I think the J2s could have been present
> among both groups the Elamites and the Indo-Iranians.
>
> Jackson
> Y-DNA J2a1*
>
>> From: "R. & G. Stevens" <>
>> Reply-To:
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [DNA] Indo-European Y-DNA
>> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 14:40:33 -0400
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jackson Montgomery-Devoni"
>> <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 1:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DNA] Indo-European Y-DNA
>>
>>
>> Jackson wrote:
>>
>>> Rich I doubt the Kurds got most of their Y-DNA from neighbours. They
>>> are and always have been a very independant group. I do not think
>>> that they have ever really mixed to extensively with their
>>> neighbours. I would think that haplogroup J2 among the Kurds is
>>> indigenous to them and always has been.
>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>
>> I am not familiar with dna studies of the Kurds, but I would be
>> surprised if they were exclusively J2.
>>
>> The Kurds have lived for centuries - possibly millenia - in the midst
>> of Semitic-speaking neighbors among whom y-haplogroup J predominates.
>> It doesn't seem likely the Kurds spread that J to their neighbors.
>> The reverse is the logical conclusion.
>> _______________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Jackson wrote:
>>> Also how do you know that the Medes or Persians we not mianly
>>> haplogroup J2. They most likely were majority J2.
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>> "They most likely were majority J2" is a bald assertion, Jackson.
>> What proof is there for it?
>>
>> The consensus of opinion, as I understand it, is that the
>> Indo-Iranians, of whom the Medes and Persians were two tribes,
>> originated on the Eurasian Steppe. It seems likely they were mostly
>> R1a, although it is doubtful any people can long remain genetically
>> homogeneous.
>>
>> The J2 in Iran is likely native (Elamite) there or was spread there
>> by the Assyrians and Babylonians, who were Semitic speakers. Iran was
>> also conquered by the Arabs in the 7th century and its population
>> converted to Islam.
>>
>> Why would one look to two Indo-European-speaking tribes from the
>> Eurasian Steppe to explain the presence of J2 in Iran, when a huge
>> Semitic J2 population is right next door in Mesopotamia and has been
>> for millenia?
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>
>>

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